Leica and Zenit: A marriage made in Heaven or Hell?

[PKR]

Leica has to pay 1800 Euro for the sensor alone, as it is specific for their cameras and small-run production, let alone the rest. What to think of brass milled (in Germany) parts, the rangefinder @ 800 Euro, the cast-and-milled in Germany bodyshells, limited-run knobs and wheels, etc.

Seems as it has little to do with the quality of the files, it's just "stuff" that appeals to the Leica buyer. I don't like the plastic Nikon bodies, but in some instances they provide better protection than metal.

When I first used Leicas I had two M4s and 4 lenses. I did a lot of work with those cameras but, they were in the shop a lot for rangefinder adjustments. Still, they were fine cameras. But, things are different today. There are many options in good digital cameras. Among my pro friends, most use canon. I own Nikon and Fuji gear currently. I don't know any pro who uses Leica gear. The last was Jim Marshall, and he's passed on. Jim got special treatment from Leica because of his high profile. None of the Leica users I knew back then, could get repairs done as quickly as Jim did.

Brass bodies are great if you're into that with a digital camera. I prefer light weight equipment these days. We all pack batteries and chargers and sensor cleaning products.. along with backup devices and computers. But, I honestly think it wasn't the weight of a brass body that turned many pros away from Leica. It was the cost of owning two or three bodies that were very difficult to get repaired in a reasonable time along with a plethora of great alternatives. I was surprised to see Bill Allard and David Harvey, both formally Leica only users (for most all their stuff) moving to Nikon in Bill's case and Fuji in Harvey's.

For me and many others, cameras are a tool. Today, with the constant improvements in sensor design, it's a tool that isn't owned for years like a film camera. I think we will see some changes in the camera world over the next years. It will be interesting to see who survives the process. I'm sure the Leica brand will be around.

 

[johannielscom]

Seems as it has little to do with the quality of the files, it's just "stuff" that appeals to the Leica buyer. I don't like the plastic Nikon bodies, but in some instances they provide better protection than metal.

When I first used Leicas I had two M4s and 4 lenses. I did a lot of work with those cameras but, they were in the shop a lot for rangefinder adjustments. Still, they were fine cameras. But, things are different today. There are many options in good digital cameras. Among my pro friends, most use canon. I own Nikon and Fuji gear currently. I don't know any pro who uses Leica gear. The last was Jim Marshall, and he's passed on. Jim got special treatment from Leica because of his high profile. None of the Leica users I knew back then, could get repairs done as quickly as Jim did.

Brass bodies are great if you're into that with a digital camera. I prefer light weight equipment these days. We all pack batteries and chargers and sensor cleaning products.. along with backup devices and computers. But, I honestly think it wasn't the weight of a brass body that turned many pros away from Leica. It was the cost of owning two or three bodies that were very difficult to get repaired in a reasonable time along with a plethora of great alternatives. I was surprised to see Bill Allard and David Harvey, both formally Leica only users (for most all their stuff) moving to Nikon in Bill's case and Fuji in Harvey's.

For me and many others, cameras are a tool. Today, with the constant improvements in sensor design, it's a tool that isn't owned for years like a film camera. I think we will see some changes in the camera world over the next years. It will be interesting to see who survives the process. I'm sure the Leica brand will be around.

A very proficient take on the current situation of both Leica and other camera manufacturers.

Me, I decided to invest in Canon FD glass and shoot a Sony A7 (original) with it until I decide I need some other body. Light, cheap, expendable and sufficient quality to make the bride cry with joy when I deliver the images. 😀😀

 

[Michael Markey]

Well summed up PKR.
I have three film M bodies .... great fun and lovely to use but for digital have sold my Canon body and moved to a Sony A7s .

Not a huge outlay ... takes all my lenses ,Leica ,Canon,Pentax.
The requirements for a modern digital body are a different ball game from the film bodies of old.

 

[PKR]

Well summed up PKR.
I have three film M bodies .... great fun and lovely to use but for digital have sold my Canon body and moved to a Sony A7s .

Not a huge outlay ... takes all my lenses ,Leica ,Canon,Pentax.
The requirements for a modern digital body are a different ball game from the film bodies of old.

It's interesting that in my day to day work I've been using APS-C sensor cameras for most of it. I'm slowly (mostly thinking and not acting) moving away from FF sensors. I can do this in some comfort as I can rent most anything up to a phase one locally. In looking at my past work I find I need a fairly wide lens on occasion (20mm in 35 equivalent), a micro, which I use for still life and some portraits, and a wide to mid range zoom. I look forward to reducing my equipment package by several pounds and two zooms that will finish most of their retirement in the cabinet. The FF gear will get sold or be given to my assistant.

I'll bet that none of my clients notice the change .. if and when it happens.

I've also begun using speed lights for some work when I would have packed up the small studio flash in the past. Lot of changes in my photo world. All good, so far.

The less equipment I pack, the more work I get done.

 

[Michael Markey]

I like the Sony FF sensors for my FF lenses otherwise sensor size isn`t an issue for me.

The outfit is still smaller than a Canon DSLR and makes a fair job of the sports stuff even using manual focus.


Otherwise I use two Sigma Merrills with their crop sensors for the more static stuff .
Their relatively large mp sensors allow me to crop so the outfit becomes much more flexible in terms of achievable reach without the need to carry longer lenses .

The overall direction though is as small a package as does the job.
If the Merrills were more responsive I`d use them for the sports shots instead if the Sony and the Canon 70-200/2.8

The limits that I could crop without loosing resolution would probably be sufficient for my needs.


I sometimes think of picking up a digital Leica for my Leica lenses but its difficult to see the advantage that would bring.
Certainly not image quality and I find focusing peaking more accurate / flexible and quicker than an RF.

Its like you say ... its the other stuff and I have that in my film bodies which are more reliable.

 

[David Hughes]

Maybe the story is back to front... Snip! ... ;-)

Yes, I wondered that as a lot of KMZ's and FED's cameras have been re-badged as Leicas and so...

Regards, David

 

[PKR]

I like the Sony FF sensors for my FF lenses otherwise sensor size isn`t an issue for me.

The outfit is still smaller than a Canon DSLR and makes a fair job of the sports stuff even using manual focus.


Otherwise I use two Sigma Merrills with their crop sensors for the more static stuff .
Their relatively large mp sensors allow me to crop so the outfit becomes much more flexible in terms of achievable reach without the need to carry longer lenses .

The overall direction though is as small a package as does the job.
If the Merrills were more responsive I`d use them for the sports shots instead if the Sony and the Canon 70-200/2.8

The limits that I could crop without loosing resolution would probably be sufficient for my needs.


I sometimes think of picking up a digital Leica for my Leica lenses but its difficult to see the advantage that would bring.
Certainly not image quality and I find focusing peaking more accurate / flexible and quicker than an RF.

Its like you say ... its the other stuff and I have that in my film bodies which are more reliable.

The thing that seems a constant is, wait a few months and you will have more options. In my work, lighting is the thing (hardware + knowledge) that separates the pros from most others. There are so many new small speed lights on the market that I'm not sure I've see all the variations. A while back I began building modifiers to use with my small speed lights (Nikon SB) and begin using them in the studio rather than the studio flash to see what I could do. After a few months of this, I became quite confident in their use. I have a 4x6 Ft soft light rig all lit with speed lights. Not good for my 100 ISO Neopan but, great with the digital cameras. It packs up small and fits in a bag.. less light stands and poles.

It's a wonderful portrait light.. all batteries, no wires, except the flash trigger when using it for portraits. Nikon CLS has an unwanted delay.

Michael, just a thought: I began picking my cameras by sensor rather than model (most have the same basic features). There are three sensor manufacturers I watch: Sony, Toshiba (they may be in $ trouble) and Nikon. Nikon doesn't make many, just a few for their top end cameras. Sony, by far, seems the current leader. But, some have claimed Nikon got better results with some Sony sensors than Sony has. This is camera specific. I'm not a pixel peeper, but want an overall look. The old Fuji S5 has a great, small pixel site count, sensor. I've kept my old S5 for some portrait work. X-Trans sensors are great for black and white. All this is up for grabs and changing constantly. I think it's worth watching.

 

[David Hughes]

And as for Zenit having a poor reputation, I seem to remember a lot of people raving about the new Jupiter 3+ lens not so long ago. So perhaps things have changed or perhaps their reputation is better than we see on the www. Not that you can believe much you read there...

Regards, David

 

[Michael Markey]

Michael, just a thought: I began picking my cameras by sensor rather than model (most have the same basic features). There are three sensor manufacturers I watch: Sony, Toshiba (they may be in $ trouble) and Nikon. Nikon doesn't make many, just a few for their top end cameras. Sony, by far, seems the current leader. But, some have claimed Nikon got better results with some Sony sensors than Sony has. This is camera specific. I'm not a pixel peeper, but want an overall look. The old Fuji S5 has a great, small pixel site count, sensor. I've kept my old S5 for some portrait work. X-Trans sensors are great for black and white. All this is up for grabs and changing constantly. I think it's worth watching.

Lights are something that I know nothing about 🙂

Its the overall look for me too.
Never used Nikon but I like what they seem to do with the Sony sensors.
I can`t for the life of me see what this rumored collaboration with Zenit is going to bring to an already over crowded party.

 

[PKR]

Lights are something that I know nothing about 🙂

Its the overall look for me too.
Never used Nikon but I like what they seem to do with the Sony sensors.
I can`t for the life of me see what this rumored collaboration with Zenit is going to bring to an already over crowded party.

It could just be a red dot branding of a new Zeint, or a collaborative effort for a new camera.. or just hot air.

Lots of crazy stuff on the interweb. Wait and see??

 

[ptpdprinter]

I can`t for the life of me see what this rumored collaboration with Zenit is going to bring to an already over crowded party.

A cheap body for your Summilux SL 50mm?

 

[BlackXList]

It makes no sense for everyone to think Leica will be involved in Zenit's latest endeavor when their stated goal is to produce a premium product. The last thing Leica needs is competition in their market niche, especially a lower cost option.

PF

Why not? They already do exactly that with Panasonic, and some people still pay over the odds for the exact same camera with a red dot on it.

 

[PKR]

Why not? They already do exactly that with Panasonic, and some people still pay over the odds for the exact same camera with a red dot on it.

A pal's sister is a sales person at a VW Porsche dealership. She told him that she quietly laughs when selling a Porsche branded mini SUV. She told him it's almost identical to the VW model except for leather seats and some interior appointments and the Porsche logo and wheels. I think he said it came in different colors than the VW too. It cost $20k more than the VW model. That's what branding is about.

 

[Huss]

And as for Zenit having a poor reputation, I seem to remember a lot of people raving about the new Jupiter 3+ lens not so long ago. So perhaps things have changed or perhaps their reputation is better than we see on the www. Not that you can believe much you read there...

Regards, David

The Zenit/Helios lenses are great. I have many.
The cameras suck. I have two NOS ones (a 12sd and a TTL)
But of course I still enjoy using the cameras!

 

[Huss]

A pal's sister is a sales person at a VW Porsche dealership. She told him that she quietly laughs when selling a Porsche branded mini SUV. She told him it's almost identical to the VW model except for leather seats and some interior appointments and the Porsche logo and wheels. I think he said it came in different colors than the VW too. It cost $20k more than the VW model. That's what branding is about.

Naah. Perhaps the base chassis the similar, but the bodies are different, the motors are at a much higher state of tune (and some are different), the steering and suspension set ups are different, the brakes are different, the interior is different.
But apart from that, they are the same.

Now Chevy Suburban/GMC Tahoe/Cadillac Escalade - the first two are the same, the Caddy is a jazzed up version.

 

[jaapv]

Seems as it has little to do with the quality of the files, it's just "stuff" that appeals to the Leica buyer. I don't like the plastic Nikon bodies, but in some instances they provide better protection than metal.

When I first used Leicas I had two M4s and 4 lenses. I did a lot of work with those cameras but, they were in the shop a lot for rangefinder adjustments. Still, they were fine cameras. But, things are different today. There are many options in good digital cameras. Among my pro friends, most use canon. I own Nikon and Fuji gear currently. I don't know any pro who uses Leica gear. The last was Jim Marshall, and he's passed on. Jim got special treatment from Leica because of his high profile. None of the Leica users I knew back then, could get repairs done as quickly as Jim did.

Brass bodies are great if you're into that with a digital camera. I prefer light weight equipment these days. We all pack batteries and chargers and sensor cleaning products.. along with backup devices and computers. But, I honestly think it wasn't the weight of a brass body that turned many pros away from Leica. It was the cost of owning two or three bodies that were very difficult to get repaired in a reasonable time along with a plethora of great alternatives. I was surprised to see Bill Allard and David Harvey, both formally Leica only users (for most all their stuff) moving to Nikon in Bill's case and Fuji in Harvey's.

For me and many others, cameras are a tool. Today, with the constant improvements in sensor design, it's a tool that isn't owned for years like a film camera. I think we will see some changes in the camera world over the next years. It will be interesting to see who survives the process. I'm sure the Leica brand will be around.

You are in the wrong forum for pros using Leica, they tend to congregate on LUF and DPI.

 

[PKR]

Naah. Perhaps the base chassis the similar, but the bodies are different, the motors are at a much higher state of tune (and some are different), the steering and suspension set ups are different, the brakes are different, the interior is different.
But apart from that, they are the same.

Now Chevy Suburban/GMC Tahoe/Cadillac Escalade - the first two are the same, the Caddy is a jazzed up version.

This was a few years back and I'm not a car buff. So, I know little about either. The one she spoke of had the same engine and chassis I think..

I'm more of an old pickup truck guy. Simple stuff.

 

[Huss]

I'm more of an old pickup truck guy. Simple stuff.

I'm w/ you. I'm a Jeep dood. Need a vehicle that can take me, my dogs and my gear wherever the road goes, or ends.

 

[rbiemer]

If Leica wanted to sell more product and not compete with themselves, maybe a collaboration like this would let them sell more products while competing with the generations of used Leica film gear?


Rob

 

[farlymac]

Why not? They already do exactly that with Panasonic, and some people still pay over the odds for the exact same camera with a red dot on it.

Ah, but that is where Leica takes a known product, and upscales it to their standard. If they are collaborating with Zenit, they are working the opposite angle, creating a less expensive competitor version of one of their established systems. How can that help the bottom line, unless they also have invested in Zenit? KMZ is only making the lenses, and have been very coy about where the camera will be assembled.

I'm just going to wait until something hits the shelves before I make any more judgements about the camera.

PF