countmypixels
Newbie
Hi, my first post here so go easy on me ... I'm a Sony Nex shooter (aargh!).. digital only.. Although I do have a Contax G1 sitting around unused which I bought with a bunch of lenses and used to shoot a Nikon FE2 as a work camera.
Lately have been getting an urge to shoot some film again and was thinking of starting with either a Leica CL or (after reading a Ken Rockwell review!!!) a Minolta CL-E, as I mostly prefer wider focal lengths. I have a Cv15 and was thinking of adding a 40mm to the CL/CLE.
However,just read a post by the Phoblographer where he suggests the CL may be easier to maintain/service (if required), see discussion here:
http://www.thephoblographer.com/201...guide-to-affordable-film-rangefinder-cameras/
Should I be concerned about this aspect or is this just a case of 'too much information leads to procrastination'?
My wife has a Sony RX100 so between this digicam and my Nex 5N we are in digital 'nirvana'. I have to ask myself am I 'bonkers' to be even thinking about shooting film again. Is this just a passing fad or a sign of something more sinister?
Lately have been getting an urge to shoot some film again and was thinking of starting with either a Leica CL or (after reading a Ken Rockwell review!!!) a Minolta CL-E, as I mostly prefer wider focal lengths. I have a Cv15 and was thinking of adding a 40mm to the CL/CLE.
However,just read a post by the Phoblographer where he suggests the CL may be easier to maintain/service (if required), see discussion here:
http://www.thephoblographer.com/201...guide-to-affordable-film-rangefinder-cameras/
Should I be concerned about this aspect or is this just a case of 'too much information leads to procrastination'?
My wife has a Sony RX100 so between this digicam and my Nex 5N we are in digital 'nirvana'. I have to ask myself am I 'bonkers' to be even thinking about shooting film again. Is this just a passing fad or a sign of something more sinister?
begona
Goran Begoña
CLE is better camera...it is all electronic but if you buy it in working condition and care it it will be good. and it is not that expensive to use it few years before need for repair
V-12
Well-known
The CL still keeps working if the meter breaks, but it is still a broken camera for anybody wanting to buy it from you. The CLE on the other hand has a bit more versatility if working properly when you buy it. Old camera's are a dilemma, so if in doubt buy from a dealer with a warranty.
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
I really don't know what's meant by the CL being easier to repair than the CLE. To be sure, the CLE is electronic, and if the electronics go you're in trouble. I can tell you that the electronics on mine can be wonky -- I believe a cleaning of the contacts is all that's needed. But you are at the mercy of the electronics. I have heard that the electronics can be cannibalized from an X700 SLR (someone should confirm this, obviously).
By the same token, many, many CLs seem to have dead meters, and I guess if you can live with that you'll be fine -- but my sense is that they really are not repairable unless you can find a donor CL with a working meter. (I bet there are a lot more X700s out there than CLs.)So, both cameras have potential repair issues.
In terms of usability, having the 28mm framelines in the CLE is very important, I think. And I will say that the viewfinder of the CLE is about the best of any M camera -- bar none. I'm a glasses wearer and it's really nice; displays of the shutter speed are quite easy to see. The CLE is also autoexposure, which is a nice plus, and the meter is very accurate and much more sophisticated than the CL's (reads off the film plane, like an OM-2). But, it doesn't meter in manual! It has TTL flash capability also, which can be a big plus.
The CL needs a battery, but only for the meter. It will work without a battery -- unlike the CLE. It has a lovely viewfinder also, but of course 40mm is as wide as it will go. Setting the shutter speeds with that vertical wheel is not something you can do with your eye at the finder; this is easy to do with the CLE.
If you like the wider focal lengths, then I'd say the CLE is the one for you. But if you shoot in manual, be prepared to meter separately. And be aware of the electronics issue when buying.
By the same token, many, many CLs seem to have dead meters, and I guess if you can live with that you'll be fine -- but my sense is that they really are not repairable unless you can find a donor CL with a working meter. (I bet there are a lot more X700s out there than CLs.)So, both cameras have potential repair issues.
In terms of usability, having the 28mm framelines in the CLE is very important, I think. And I will say that the viewfinder of the CLE is about the best of any M camera -- bar none. I'm a glasses wearer and it's really nice; displays of the shutter speed are quite easy to see. The CLE is also autoexposure, which is a nice plus, and the meter is very accurate and much more sophisticated than the CL's (reads off the film plane, like an OM-2). But, it doesn't meter in manual! It has TTL flash capability also, which can be a big plus.
The CL needs a battery, but only for the meter. It will work without a battery -- unlike the CLE. It has a lovely viewfinder also, but of course 40mm is as wide as it will go. Setting the shutter speeds with that vertical wheel is not something you can do with your eye at the finder; this is easy to do with the CLE.
If you like the wider focal lengths, then I'd say the CLE is the one for you. But if you shoot in manual, be prepared to meter separately. And be aware of the electronics issue when buying.
Ronald M
Veteran
Sherry at Golden Touch Camera Repair as all the spare parts for a CL. She is a trained Leica tech. ie a cl is repairable, CLE not.
Vics
Veteran
Yes, you're a sick puppy and need help. That's what we're all here for. Buy them both. One can be backup for the other. Seriously, I'd never thought about these little Leicas til I bought an Elmar-C 90mm lens for my M3 the other day. Now I'm GASing for a CL and a Summicron-C 40mm to go with it. That's the way this Leica stuff works. It's a total sickness. Back away while you still can!
filmtwit
Desperate but not serious
How many of us have actually had Minolta CLE's go bad on them?
vs
How many of us have actually had Leica(minolta) CL's go bad on them?
Back the original poster: I've owned both. Both worked fine while I owned them too.
CL is actually easier to use, but is a more limiting camera to use vs CLE. For instance to use the meter on a CLE, you need to be AE mode, then switch to manual. Teh layout and use of shutter speed dial is fantastic and the only Leica to come close here was the M5. But you're going to run into limitations such as frame lines and lenses (no collectibles for instance). You'll also need separate viewer for lens below 40mm.
Minolta CLE can handle more lenses, basically it has 25mm/28mm/40mm/90mm lines (25mm being viewer itself). You should be able to handle shorter collectibles too (mainly 50mm, no idea on the 90mm). Easy access and use of modern batteries. Timer and easier access to very inexpensive flashes.
Both are roughly the same size (Cl is little bit smaller). Again I've owned both and never had a problem with either. I do know of more people having mechanical and meter problems then CLE as a whole. I've actually never known anyone to have the CLE electronics go bad on them. Then again wear and tear on electronics is something different then mechanical (which the CL meter is partially). The CLE shares a number of part in commen if I remember right with the XG series Minolta (just not electrical).
Oh I generally had better metering on the CLE then the CL.
Hope this helps?
vs
How many of us have actually had Leica(minolta) CL's go bad on them?
Back the original poster: I've owned both. Both worked fine while I owned them too.
CL is actually easier to use, but is a more limiting camera to use vs CLE. For instance to use the meter on a CLE, you need to be AE mode, then switch to manual. Teh layout and use of shutter speed dial is fantastic and the only Leica to come close here was the M5. But you're going to run into limitations such as frame lines and lenses (no collectibles for instance). You'll also need separate viewer for lens below 40mm.
Minolta CLE can handle more lenses, basically it has 25mm/28mm/40mm/90mm lines (25mm being viewer itself). You should be able to handle shorter collectibles too (mainly 50mm, no idea on the 90mm). Easy access and use of modern batteries. Timer and easier access to very inexpensive flashes.
Both are roughly the same size (Cl is little bit smaller). Again I've owned both and never had a problem with either. I do know of more people having mechanical and meter problems then CLE as a whole. I've actually never known anyone to have the CLE electronics go bad on them. Then again wear and tear on electronics is something different then mechanical (which the CL meter is partially). The CLE shares a number of part in commen if I remember right with the XG series Minolta (just not electrical).
Oh I generally had better metering on the CLE then the CL.
Hope this helps?
micromoogman
Well-known
My CLE has been working fine the past 6 years...
bastian a.
Well-known
I had both and sold the CLE ...
Palaeoboy
Joel Matherson
There are alot of myths that circulate around the CLE and I read almost all of them have been perpetuated in this thread as well.
Firstly the notion that a CL can be repaired and a CLE cannot is total nonsense. Like any camera some things can be repaired and some things cant. The light seals need replacing or the shutter curtains may stick a bit, the speeds need to be calibrated, these things are all perfectly able to be repaired by a competent repair technician. People interpret that if you cant buy a replacement circuit board for a CLE then that instantly makes the entire camera unrepairable which is simply not the case. The myth extends itself that when the meter fails in a CL you can still use it but in a CLE thats the end of it. Firstly the meter in the CLE is ten times more reliable than those in the CL so that problem in itself is minimized. Now when the CLE meter electronics do start to play up a bit often dancing up and down which is a contact cleaning problem but they have been known to fail whereby it just shows the up and down arrow. However on the rare occasion I have seen this failure, guess what, just like the CL manual speed selection still seems to work perfectly so the myth of dead CLEs all over the place is just that a myth. Its true you can get the parts to repair the CLs meter while you cant with the CLEs meter however when you look at the cost of both cameras, the repair of the meter for a CL pretty much is more than the cost of the camera itself and even if the CLEs meter boards were available it too would cost more than a replacement camera. So in perspective you should base your selection on other factors.
The XG electronic parts transfer is the another big myth too. the CLE is the only Minolta camera with off the curtain metering system so XG parts are not going to work. Minolta sold the technology to Olympus so their meters have more in common with a CLE to than a XG.
So make your choice on some other factors. If 50mm lenses are a big part of your photography then get a CL. The CLE has no 50mm framelines and it will drive you mad if 50mm is your main lens. If you use wider lenses like a 28mm then its a no brainer either the CLE is the way to go. It does have the best 28mm framelines of any rangefinder with the exception of the Zeiss Ikon. If you use flash then the CLE is the camera for you. Its TTL flash system is excellent. If you want a level of Automation and aperture priority auto is something you like then again the CLE is the way to go. Need a self timer then the CLE is there again. Need greater focusing accuracy then the CLE again is more accurate than the CL. The CLEs viewfinder is much better and brighter. So at the end of the day the CLE ticks way more boxes than a CL. However if mechanical cameras and 50mm lenses are at the top of your list of prerequisites then the CL is the choice. Almost every CLE fan that I have met that use it as their main rangefinder dont have a M as their second backup body they have a CL. So for many they can be that compact compliment to each other. Once you go 40mm you never go back LOL
Firstly the notion that a CL can be repaired and a CLE cannot is total nonsense. Like any camera some things can be repaired and some things cant. The light seals need replacing or the shutter curtains may stick a bit, the speeds need to be calibrated, these things are all perfectly able to be repaired by a competent repair technician. People interpret that if you cant buy a replacement circuit board for a CLE then that instantly makes the entire camera unrepairable which is simply not the case. The myth extends itself that when the meter fails in a CL you can still use it but in a CLE thats the end of it. Firstly the meter in the CLE is ten times more reliable than those in the CL so that problem in itself is minimized. Now when the CLE meter electronics do start to play up a bit often dancing up and down which is a contact cleaning problem but they have been known to fail whereby it just shows the up and down arrow. However on the rare occasion I have seen this failure, guess what, just like the CL manual speed selection still seems to work perfectly so the myth of dead CLEs all over the place is just that a myth. Its true you can get the parts to repair the CLs meter while you cant with the CLEs meter however when you look at the cost of both cameras, the repair of the meter for a CL pretty much is more than the cost of the camera itself and even if the CLEs meter boards were available it too would cost more than a replacement camera. So in perspective you should base your selection on other factors.
The XG electronic parts transfer is the another big myth too. the CLE is the only Minolta camera with off the curtain metering system so XG parts are not going to work. Minolta sold the technology to Olympus so their meters have more in common with a CLE to than a XG.
So make your choice on some other factors. If 50mm lenses are a big part of your photography then get a CL. The CLE has no 50mm framelines and it will drive you mad if 50mm is your main lens. If you use wider lenses like a 28mm then its a no brainer either the CLE is the way to go. It does have the best 28mm framelines of any rangefinder with the exception of the Zeiss Ikon. If you use flash then the CLE is the camera for you. Its TTL flash system is excellent. If you want a level of Automation and aperture priority auto is something you like then again the CLE is the way to go. Need a self timer then the CLE is there again. Need greater focusing accuracy then the CLE again is more accurate than the CL. The CLEs viewfinder is much better and brighter. So at the end of the day the CLE ticks way more boxes than a CL. However if mechanical cameras and 50mm lenses are at the top of your list of prerequisites then the CL is the choice. Almost every CLE fan that I have met that use it as their main rangefinder dont have a M as their second backup body they have a CL. So for many they can be that compact compliment to each other. Once you go 40mm you never go back LOL
Brian Levy
Established
Not sure I agree the CLIENT is lens limited. It has 40, 50, & 90mm frame lines. Per the manual, 35 mm is the outer edges of the 40mm lines and 28mm is almost bang on the full viewfinder. The meter covers approximately the 135mm fl. I,vengeful used the 135mm ltm Canon with adaptor with out the a'ccy eyepiece but the separate viewer is faster and easier. I have even used a Visioflex with the CLIENT. No easier or more difficult than using it with another man body.
There was a comment about not being able to use the shutter dial while looking through the viewfinder. Admittedly, both the speed control and aperture dial operate in the opposite direction of other cameras and 1st reaction is to look away to see the dials. But their direction is logical when using the meter and after a bit of continual practice it becomes easy and you do not think about it. I actually have a bigger problem using my other cameras, now.
The CL has been my 1st and only Leica. Got it in about 1988. It had been used by a professional photographer as his wedding carrier for candidate so it was not lightly used before I got it. I sent it to Leica USA for a tuneup. Only things needed was meter contact cleaning and meter adjustment and small speed adjustments. There was a small top plate dent but the cost to replace would have doubled the repair bill and it seemed every CLASS I saw had the same dent. So for 24 years it has never missed a beat and was my primary 35mm camera not counting when I slapped on the 35mm back to my Bronica ETRS.
As for the CLEANING. I tried 1 for a weekend and liked it except for the lack of metering in manual mode. Yes I could meter in AE and then switch to manual and work from there but it was faster to use a hand held meter. Not a big deal as I almost always carry a hand held except with the CLIENT that has 1 of the best and accurate in camera meters I have ever tried. It is dead on with my other 2 semi-spot meters. If you are not getting perfect exposures with the CL it is either you of a meter misadjustment or forgetting it is a semi-spot meter, rather unique with film cameras. The CLE I tried metering was actually not as accurate but, it was reading off compared to my meters by a 1/2stop across the range.
I too keep hearing about the CLE not being repairable but never have seen a dead 1. I realize over time the CL may be the longer lived unit as circuit boards hit eol that is a reality that must be faced with all electronics. It also happens with mechanical items but they are less time sensitive as are electrical components. I'd not worry about it though as everything at some point hits the eol ceiling, electrical or mechanical.
There was a comment about not being able to use the shutter dial while looking through the viewfinder. Admittedly, both the speed control and aperture dial operate in the opposite direction of other cameras and 1st reaction is to look away to see the dials. But their direction is logical when using the meter and after a bit of continual practice it becomes easy and you do not think about it. I actually have a bigger problem using my other cameras, now.
The CL has been my 1st and only Leica. Got it in about 1988. It had been used by a professional photographer as his wedding carrier for candidate so it was not lightly used before I got it. I sent it to Leica USA for a tuneup. Only things needed was meter contact cleaning and meter adjustment and small speed adjustments. There was a small top plate dent but the cost to replace would have doubled the repair bill and it seemed every CLASS I saw had the same dent. So for 24 years it has never missed a beat and was my primary 35mm camera not counting when I slapped on the 35mm back to my Bronica ETRS.
As for the CLEANING. I tried 1 for a weekend and liked it except for the lack of metering in manual mode. Yes I could meter in AE and then switch to manual and work from there but it was faster to use a hand held meter. Not a big deal as I almost always carry a hand held except with the CLIENT that has 1 of the best and accurate in camera meters I have ever tried. It is dead on with my other 2 semi-spot meters. If you are not getting perfect exposures with the CL it is either you of a meter misadjustment or forgetting it is a semi-spot meter, rather unique with film cameras. The CLE I tried metering was actually not as accurate but, it was reading off compared to my meters by a 1/2stop across the range.
I too keep hearing about the CLE not being repairable but never have seen a dead 1. I realize over time the CL may be the longer lived unit as circuit boards hit eol that is a reality that must be faced with all electronics. It also happens with mechanical items but they are less time sensitive as are electrical components. I'd not worry about it though as everything at some point hits the eol ceiling, electrical or mechanical.
giellaleafapmu
Well-known
I had a different experience, broke the meter, went to a well known Leica repairer and got it fixed at a reasonable price. That was some ten year ago and the meter is still working fine today. Of course, it could very well be that they had actually a donor CL or that the meter broke in a lucky way that was easy to fix with generic components.
(My understanding is that the problem was actually in the cables connecting the cell to the camera in the section where the cell harm bends, maybe all the did was changing some cables, dunno!)
As for which camera to buy to me they are a draw, the Minolta is better but the CL is not bad or far away either and both are old cameras which might be problematic to repair. I would buy the one I can find in better condition and/or at the best value for money.
GLF
gliderbee
Well-known
Why not ? You can see the shutter speed indicated in the viewfinder ! I do it all the time (btw, I own both the CLE and the CL).
Stefan.
countmypixels
Newbie
Thank you everyone for your advice.... to update my situation I ended up buying a 2nd hand Zeiss Ikon ZM after seeing one in a store..... it has the mod cons to make life with film easier (whilst not being fully 'auto') and I was drawn to the large bright viewfinder.... it's not perfect but I'm now out shooting and developing film again so plenty of learning (after the relative ease of my digicams). Also bought another FE2 body and am pressing my G1 back into service. Thanks again.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
Was about to say the same thing.
I had a CL, then sold it and bought a CLE. It was ok but didn't inspire me. Sold it. Some years later I bought another CL, which had a funky take up spool. Loved it anyway, although I ranted at it regularly when it didn't want to load correctly. Sold it when I bought an M6TTL, but missed it.
Bought a third CL last year. I have a really nice M4-2 but like shooting with the CL more. This one is as perfect as my first. Its shape and size just seems more comfortable for casual shooting.
A very personal thing, which camera suits you best. No one can answer it but you. Glad you've found something that works for you.
G
phofseth
Established
Potential buyers of a CL; check the long shutter times. They do eventually stick. The good news is that working the 1\2 s, 1\4s etc. ,repeatedly, does revive them. p
Godfrey
somewhat colored
That's true for nearly any mechanical shutter. In the end, they all need to be serviced now and then, and it's more likely that someone can service a fully mechanical shutter than that parts are available for an older electronic shutter.
I go back and forth between liking the CL more than the M4-2. Both have their charm. Both take greet photos.
G