Leica did not perform in cold weather

[calexg]

Hi everyone,

I recently bought an M4-2 and a Summicron 50/2 from the RFF classifieds, and I've been out taking photos the past couple of days in between my workday to test the camera and lens out to make sure everything works well.

There are no labs within 1500km of me that process E-6 or b&w film, so I have to resort to shooting C-41. Anyway, I eagerly loaded a roll of XP2 and went for a few short walks. I live in a fairly isolated northern town in Canada--temperatures get down to -50ºC this time of the year. Fortunately, we've been going through a rather warm spell the past week (only -20 or -30) so I was happy to get out and enjoy the weather. I heard that Leica M's are tough cameras, and that was one of the reasons I bought one: so I could use it when it gets a bit chilly outside.

Anyway, long story short, my Leica M4-2 failed to perform properly in rather mild temperatures. I was about mid-way through the roll when, as I advanced the film to the next frame, it sounded as if the film sprocket holes had ripped. The camera wouldn't advance the film. Being a relatively new photography enthusiast, I wasn't sure if that was just how the camera or film reacted to cold weather (I had been outside for about an hour and a half and it was -20) so I kept shooting. When I got inside, I found that the camera stopped advancing the film mid-roll. The sprocket holes were intact. I ran a dummy roll through the camera a few times, indoors, and everything went okay. No problems advancing.

So I guess my question is: has anyone pushed their Leica to perform in cold weather for many hours at a time? I'd find it ridiculous to own a camera that doesn't work half the year.

Thanks for any input / help!

 

[ChrisN]

If the camera has not performed in the conditions, it undoubtedly needs a service. Sherry Krauter told me once that the Leica M requires 12 different types of grease in different parts of the mechanism. Your camera is perhaps now 30 years old - if it has not had a proper service recently, it may be time to ensure its future performance.

 

[Prosaic]

Hi everyone,

I recently bought an M4-2 and a Summicron 50/2 from the RFF classifieds, and I've been out taking photos the past couple of days in between my workday to test the camera and lens out to make sure everything works well.

There are no labs within 1500km of me that process E-6 or b&w film, so I have to resort to shooting C-41. Anyway, I eagerly loaded a roll of XP2 and went for a few short walks. I live in a fairly isolated northern town in Canada--temperatures get down to -50ºC this time of the year. Fortunately, we've been going through a rather warm spell the past week (only -20 or -30) so I was happy to get out and enjoy the weather. I heard that Leica M's are tough cameras, and that was one of the reasons I bought one: so I could use it when it gets a bit chilly outside.

Anyway, long story short, my Leica M4-2 failed to perform properly in rather mild temperatures. I was about mid-way through the roll when, as I advanced the film to the next frame, it sounded as if the film sprocket holes had ripped. The camera wouldn't advance the film. Being a relatively new photography enthusiast, I wasn't sure if that was just how the camera or film reacted to cold weather (I had been outside for about an hour and a half and it was -20) so I kept shooting. When I got inside, I found that the camera stopped advancing the film mid-roll. The sprocket holes were intact. I ran a dummy roll through the camera a few times, indoors, and everything went okay. No problems advancing.

So I guess my question is: has anyone pushed their Leica to perform in cold weather for many hours at a time? I'd find it ridiculous to own a camera that doesn't work half the year.

Thanks for any input / help!

Have you been shooting Leica before? May be a problem with your film loading.

 

[maddoc]

Also my guess, either not properly loaded or the camera needs some service. All my Leica Ms have worked without any problems in Hokkaido's winter so far (at temperatures ~ - 10 degrees Celsius), when staying outside for more than one or two hours.

I would suggest to try a second roll and carefully check if the film is loaded correctly.

Cheers,

Gabor

 

[swoop]

Sounds like you improperly loaded the film.

 

[Mr_Flibble]

I've had a Leica IIIc that did not behave as it should after an hour in -10C. Inconsistent shutterspeeds mostely.

 

[Nikon Bob]

Just a couple of points. Your definition of mild, -20C, to most would be very cold. If you had the camera exposed outside of your outerwear for the whole time of your short one and a half hour walk the camera was pretty cold soaked. That would have been a test for any camera and would quickly show up any deficiencies related to maintenance. I have had a Canon P that worked well enough inside but behaved erratically, shutter, when exposed to cold that was not as cold as what you had. It now works in the cold after a CLA.

Bob

 

[__hh]

I'm surprised you still worked in -30 C, let alone the camera. That is by no means "mild".... we have just gone through a week of 40+ C in parts of Australia 🙂

Glad that the camera is still working though....

 

[feenej]

Last time I was out at -25C, my electronic camera failed after several shots (an X-700 Minolta). My mechanical camera had no problem whatsoever, an Olympus 35RC. I remember it hurt to hold my lenses at that temp, with a bare hand. I took this photo that day:

 

[ray*j*gun]

Lubricants that were used 30 years ago were terrible compared to modern materials even when fresh. After a proper service and lubrication your Leica should perform as well as any camera on the market new or old.

Ray

 

[Erik van Straten]

Film gets brittle when cold. The sprocket will rip the filmholes. When cold, you should keep your Leica under your coat, only exposing it to the cold air when actually shooting. A new, well adjusted M-Leica can peform well until -20C. When you want to use it in even colder air, the lubricants must be replaced by graphite. But again, the brittle film is the biggest problem.

Erik.

 

[BillBingham2]

I agree with Erik, I think it's the film, but try this to make sure (with his suggestion).

First try her outside for a few hours without film. If she shows the same symptoms go to step 4, if not go back inside for a few hours and continue.

Try loading a roil of film inside and see that she is working, shot five exposures making sure the film is advancing by looking at the rewind knob while you wind. If she does not work, find some instructions to review (they are out there on the internet for free), if she works go on.

Take her outside for a few hours and then shot the rest of the roll. If she freezes then go to step 4, otherwise you are all set.

Drop a note to DAG and Sherry to see what they say. It is possible that if she had a CLA done before it got to you she might have not had Leica spec lubrication used.

BTW, Welcome to the dark side, we have cookies!

B2 (;->

 

[dfoo]

I've used my M4-p in -13 for 3 hours, without an issue.

 

[Bill58]

I wonder if an M8 would perform under such harsh conditions?

 

[icebear]

Hi "Calexg",
I guess you'll go outside in a T-shirt at 0 C , as you're considering that alomost summer. Lot's of advice already by the other members. In extreme conditions the film gets hard and brittle and could be damaged, so advancing the lever after the shot must be done carefully not to rip the film. Other than old grease there should be no reason that your fully mechanical M give you any trouble even under freezer temperatures. If you like the camera give it a CLA. Happy shooting and don't lik the body at -30C 😀.

 

[emraphoto]

i can attest to the m8 performing very well in -20. i used one extensively in those kind of temps for most of last winter and the beginning part of this winter.
i can really only handle 2-3 hour bursts in that kind of weather but the m8 never skipped a beat.
i have found that below about -15-20 the lubricants in them mechanical m's becomes very very stiff. focusing rings go stiff, shutters lose accuracy etc. combine a stiff camera with very, very brittle film and you end up with torn sprocket holes.
perhaps on the next cla mention the average shoot temps and they may have an answer for you. different lubes?

 

[funkaoshi]

I was going to suggest it might be the film as well.

 

[ferider]

Have Sherry or Don service the camera and tell them explicitly it will be used under -20 degree C. They can use special lubricants for this.

Roland.

 

[BillBingham2]

Wish I could remember

Wish I could remember

.....In extreme conditions the film gets hard and brittle and could be damaged, so advancing the lever after the shot must be done carefully not to rip the film......

I wish I could remember what the temperature was but I remember someone (Kodak or Nikon) saying not to use a motor drive and in fact wind and rewind very slowly in extreme weather like this.

B2 (;->

 

[J J Kapsberger]

Sounds like you improperly loaded the film.

Exactly. Same thing happened to me in my M4. If the film is improperly loaded (e.g., the tongue not pulled through the take-up spool sufficiently), it can come off the sprocket mid-roll. And it sounds and feels very rough.