P. Lynn Miller
Well-known
15 days may not be sufficient to get a good copy of the CV Ultron 28/2, though.
I may be able to solve that problem... I have been to-ing and fro-ing about whether to sell my Ultron 28/2 or not. Fantastic lens, but I prefer 35mm length and since buying the Nokton 35/1.2, it simply lives on the shelf. But there is that once in a great while I need a fast lens wider then the 35mm... so selling it is probably not a good idea to entertain. The only other fast 28mm is way out of my budget, although I got to play with the 'old' Ultron 28/1.9 and really liked it.
I really need to do a big clear-out of gear... so much sits unused since I have pretty much worked out what I need and don't need for my photography.
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JohnTF
Veteran
Lots of truth in that, I have bought something that was not what I wanted, and additionally what I wanted down the line.
Hope the dollars work out, or the Leica Fairy drops in, the folks deployed to the far horizons to serve deserve anything we can do for them.
Am sure all of us would love to see photos down the line.
Regards, John
rphenning
Established
Ideadog I am loving the words you are putting down. I fully subscribe to that ideology as well, however I am weighing the cost upon myself (broke kid in college [whine whine whine]) and trying to get the most bang for my buck for her after selling off a significant portion of luxury items I do not need or use. That was successful by the way, so this plan is in full swing and looking to develop really nicely.
When it boils down to it, in my mind, she just simply likes taking photos. She will like to take photos whether it is with her little Canon, a Bessa, or a Leica. To me the cost of a Bessa and the differences between the camera and a Leica justify taking a very good hard look at the Voigtlander. She knows not to beat the living crap out of things, she knows not to poke her fingers through those shiny blades in the back.
What she doesn't really know are f-stops, shutter speeds, depth of field, hyperfocal, etc etc etc. This is why I am thinking start her off small and get her a solid package. If she enjoys it, an M6 or Noctilux (if I hit it big time) for her first promotion, if she doesn't then it isn't a big deal and she still has a camera with a good lens to pal around with and I still have some money to put some mac and cheese on my table. As much as I want this to be 100% about her and just grab her a M6 and 24 summilux, I have to calm down and look at my own situation as well.
Hope that clears a little bit up for you fellas. Keep the post alive I am seriously so into what you guys are saying and suggesting.
When it boils down to it, in my mind, she just simply likes taking photos. She will like to take photos whether it is with her little Canon, a Bessa, or a Leica. To me the cost of a Bessa and the differences between the camera and a Leica justify taking a very good hard look at the Voigtlander. She knows not to beat the living crap out of things, she knows not to poke her fingers through those shiny blades in the back.
What she doesn't really know are f-stops, shutter speeds, depth of field, hyperfocal, etc etc etc. This is why I am thinking start her off small and get her a solid package. If she enjoys it, an M6 or Noctilux (if I hit it big time) for her first promotion, if she doesn't then it isn't a big deal and she still has a camera with a good lens to pal around with and I still have some money to put some mac and cheese on my table. As much as I want this to be 100% about her and just grab her a M6 and 24 summilux, I have to calm down and look at my own situation as well.
Hope that clears a little bit up for you fellas. Keep the post alive I am seriously so into what you guys are saying and suggesting.
Bingley
Veteran
rphenning -- First off, a salute to you for being a wonderful brother! It's a wonderful thing you're doing for your sister, and I hope you'll tell her about RFF when you give her the RF!
So she's going to be deployed on a ship (does she know which one yet?), cramped quarters, and you have $$ for one lens only: get a 35. A 28 or 25 may be nice too, but if you're starting her off small, as you say, then under these conditions a 35 will be the most useful focal length. A great focal length to start w/.
As for a body, if you can find an M6 w/in your budget, then bless you, and make her a present of it. She will cherish it and use it for the rest of her life. OTOH, if an M6 is not w/in reach, my recommendation would be a Bessa R2M or an R2A. Why? Easy to use w/ a 35mm lens, and if she does get a 28 she can still shoot w/ it using the entire vf (which is pretty darned close to 28). And if she's unfamiliar w/ f-stops and such, the R2A may be a good place to start. She can set the aperture, and let the camera do the rest, until she feels comfortable enough to shoot the thing in manual mode. I've got an R3A and the meter is very accurate in AE mode.
You're a good man. Good luck w/ your search!
So she's going to be deployed on a ship (does she know which one yet?), cramped quarters, and you have $$ for one lens only: get a 35. A 28 or 25 may be nice too, but if you're starting her off small, as you say, then under these conditions a 35 will be the most useful focal length. A great focal length to start w/.
As for a body, if you can find an M6 w/in your budget, then bless you, and make her a present of it. She will cherish it and use it for the rest of her life. OTOH, if an M6 is not w/in reach, my recommendation would be a Bessa R2M or an R2A. Why? Easy to use w/ a 35mm lens, and if she does get a 28 she can still shoot w/ it using the entire vf (which is pretty darned close to 28). And if she's unfamiliar w/ f-stops and such, the R2A may be a good place to start. She can set the aperture, and let the camera do the rest, until she feels comfortable enough to shoot the thing in manual mode. I've got an R3A and the meter is very accurate in AE mode.
You're a good man. Good luck w/ your search!
__hh
Well-known
How about a CLE with a 28mm lens? Not a true leica, but close.... Very solid, compact, and quiet.
Something like this (this sample has the 40mm f1.4 on it)
Something like this (this sample has the 40mm f1.4 on it)
rphenning
Established
haha check out Ideadog's post a while back.
She hasn't gotten her orders yet but she is going to be looking at flight school.
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P. Lynn Miller
Well-known
Randy,
I have been following this thread very closely...
I think you are right on the money to believe that your sister would use a wide lenses than what most of us prefer, the 35mm. On a ship with helo's, above deck, below deck, in the air, a 28mm is just about a perfect as you will get. Wide enough to deal with close quarters, but still not too wide to start to reek havoc on people pictures with distortion. Can't think of a better focal length...
If you want us to help you, then you need to be honest with us and let know how much you have to spend. The maximum you are willing to spend. Then you from there...
I am in the custom bicycle business and building a $10,000 bicycle is pretty common place these days. But I am constantly having to deal with customers with no budget, which is different from 'money is no object'. Your budget needs to be the absolute maximum that you can or will spend.
If you only have a $1000 to spend then it is pointless to think about an M6 because you will compromise the lens too much, etc and etc.
I would recommend that you decide which lens you want to give to your sister, this is actually more important(to some degree) than the body. With the right lens, she will find making good photographs much easier. Then after you settle on a lens, find a body that will fit your budget.
An M6 with a new Ultron 28mm f1.9 should be doable for less than $1500... Cameraquest still has the 28/1.9 for $444.
$1100 will get you a new R4a and the 28/1.9... with advantage of warranty and auto-exposure.
The 28/1.9 is a very capable lens, maybe not quite as good as the 28/2 but your sister will able to hone her skills for quite while before she start to find deficiencies in the 28/1.9.
Again, I would recommend that you decide your kit and get a 'wanted' ad in the classifieds ASAP... you may be surprised how quickly the RFF elves come to your rescue!
I have been following this thread very closely...
I think you are right on the money to believe that your sister would use a wide lenses than what most of us prefer, the 35mm. On a ship with helo's, above deck, below deck, in the air, a 28mm is just about a perfect as you will get. Wide enough to deal with close quarters, but still not too wide to start to reek havoc on people pictures with distortion. Can't think of a better focal length...
If you want us to help you, then you need to be honest with us and let know how much you have to spend. The maximum you are willing to spend. Then you from there...
I am in the custom bicycle business and building a $10,000 bicycle is pretty common place these days. But I am constantly having to deal with customers with no budget, which is different from 'money is no object'. Your budget needs to be the absolute maximum that you can or will spend.
If you only have a $1000 to spend then it is pointless to think about an M6 because you will compromise the lens too much, etc and etc.
I would recommend that you decide which lens you want to give to your sister, this is actually more important(to some degree) than the body. With the right lens, she will find making good photographs much easier. Then after you settle on a lens, find a body that will fit your budget.
An M6 with a new Ultron 28mm f1.9 should be doable for less than $1500... Cameraquest still has the 28/1.9 for $444.
$1100 will get you a new R4a and the 28/1.9... with advantage of warranty and auto-exposure.
The 28/1.9 is a very capable lens, maybe not quite as good as the 28/2 but your sister will able to hone her skills for quite while before she start to find deficiencies in the 28/1.9.
Again, I would recommend that you decide your kit and get a 'wanted' ad in the classifieds ASAP... you may be surprised how quickly the RFF elves come to your rescue!
letvet
Member
gift
gift
Give her your M4 with a small meter and lots of black & white film. Take your time and find the right M6, use it for awhile and then trade cameras when you see her again. Not only will you buy her a camera but sacrifice going without your M4 for awhile, now that is truly altruistic. Best of luck.
BTW, that whole female vs male Leica user difference is all crap. I am sure I love my equipment for all the same reasons men do.
gift
Give her your M4 with a small meter and lots of black & white film. Take your time and find the right M6, use it for awhile and then trade cameras when you see her again. Not only will you buy her a camera but sacrifice going without your M4 for awhile, now that is truly altruistic. Best of luck.
BTW, that whole female vs male Leica user difference is all crap. I am sure I love my equipment for all the same reasons men do.
rphenning
Established
I think giving her my M4 is a little beyond what I want to go for but I can see what you are saying....I think.
P. Miller
I understand what you are saying. For some reason part of me wants to nab this stuff new for her, just so I know the dents and wear she puts into it over time are hers. I don't know why I feel that way because it is going to cost me money but I do. On that note, my budget is looking like it will be a K straight up, much less than I originally anticipated which is why I went from M6 to Bessa once things started to clear up financially a bit.
P. Miller
I understand what you are saying. For some reason part of me wants to nab this stuff new for her, just so I know the dents and wear she puts into it over time are hers. I don't know why I feel that way because it is going to cost me money but I do. On that note, my budget is looking like it will be a K straight up, much less than I originally anticipated which is why I went from M6 to Bessa once things started to clear up financially a bit.
bgb
Well-known
I think you should give her your M4 ... and a whole bunch of film so she can experiment
This means you will be giving up something that means a lot to you and that's going to be important to her. It has history and i would rather have a camera that has been loved and used than some new shiny thing even if it does come in a Holga box
In case i didn't explain my self very well by give i mean ... forever, no loan, no try this out & no anything else.
:bang:
This means you will be giving up something that means a lot to you and that's going to be important to her. It has history and i would rather have a camera that has been loved and used than some new shiny thing even if it does come in a Holga box
In case i didn't explain my self very well by give i mean ... forever, no loan, no try this out & no anything else.
:bang:
rphenning
Established
Idea:
A) Get her an M4-2 body (at KEH there are currently two listed for under a grand, one bargain for $665, one excellent for $789). I don't know if the M4-2 is a good cam, and I'm ignorant about its framelines, whether it even has a meter, etc.
B) Have some other generous family member pop for a lens (or pitch in some). A 35mm f/1.4 should be $529. (A 40mm f/1.4 is $379)
C) 10 rolls of Arista Premium from freestyle photo for $20. Or something on sale at your local pharmacy.
Total bill $665 cam + $529 lens+ around $60 shipping? +$20 for film = $1274.
Man, it's fun for me to "spend" your money! And it's sure painless for ME to see you go over your budget.
I think a lot of us are having fun watching this unfold. You'll have to show her the thread afterwards!
M4-2 doesn't have a meter I thought. Meter is big for me since she hasn't even really gone through and looked at film speeds in correlation to shutter speed and aperture and what that means and how to eyeball it. Not saying I am an expert, just saying I'd like her to get usable frames atleast. Family members are all as strapped for cash as I am so asking them for help unfortunately is out of the question but this is what I am thinking:
R2a - $549, 28 3.5 - $399, UV filter for the lens and some film - $ 100. Slides me right up comfortably into my budget and it is a solid package that isn't too wide or too long or too slow.
Bingley
Veteran
Perfect! Go for it.
The little CV 28/3.5 skopar is reputedly one of the best of the CV lineup. I've used mine on a Bessa R (same vf magnification as the R2A) w/out any problems. It can produce glorious results in b&w and is not too shabby w/ color film either. You have chosen well, young grasshopper!
rphenning
Established
Hell yeah, thanks everyone. I will be sure to let her know about all the fellas on here who helped me (her) out. Still waiting on a few responses for Holga boxes though, I might have to scoop one just for the box if it comes down to it. I plan to update this thread once I get my film back from the trip back east though so we can bring this thing to a conclusion. Thank you again everyone.
mh2000
Well-known
If you are going to buy a Holga, get the 120 GN with the glass lens... overall more pleasing tonality to my eye and only a few bucks more. Love mine!
JohnTF
Veteran
Agree, one of my favorite systems and the lenses are outstanding with mint examples commonly going for $200 per.
Was remarking with the Sony rep today that that system would have given everyone a run for their digital dollars had they changed the camera to digital. It is compact, AF, AE, or manual, fast to change lenses, viewfinder is automatic, and results are outstanding. Focus worked a bit better and faster in the G2.
I would not be surprised to see a camera and lens for $500, I have one G1 and two G2 bodies mostly on vacation in a drawer.
John
rphenning
Established
hm. Contax huh? I will have a look. Any suggestions where to look? Ebay and KEH both are trying to extort me.
JohnTF
Veteran
I normally see a couple at each show. They are common enough, I have not checked KEH lately, but they are a good enough starting place.
As I am much better at buying than selling, I normally just operate a collection/ pack rat / stash of equipment with the occasional package going to a friend who I am sort of sponsoring. I sent her a G1, G2, with 35mm and 90mm Zeiss lenses, which she uses quite well. I prefer the 28mm over the 35mm, and love the 90mm, but also have the 45mm which gets very good comments, but I only have because it came on a body that went to Zuzanna.
Midwest in Columbus is a good source, and are open to phone calls and some "discussion", I just saw Igor at the local meeting of the Reps' "Meet and Greet", but did not discuss his stock.
He does have a web page, and will be in Chicago for the show in Skokie on Sunday.
Gather some information, and if you PM me, I can make some calls if it interests you.
At the price, I think they are excellent cameras, produce excellent results, and if you find you want to move to Leica, they are an excellent gateway camera to RF, and should retain their current value because of the excellent glass and the fact they are, IMO, under priced due to the double whammy of digital and the demise of the companies and the economy. Dealers at the shows are offering really low ball prices to people wanting to sell. They essentially want a body for nothing with the lenses.
Selling prices should be quite good now, as the market is extremely soft. I always found the images very good, and I used the exposure compensation when I wanted more control. I do prefer the G2 to the G1, but some folks like the G1 just fine. G2 takes the zoom which I have seen perhaps only once, and I prefer primes regardless.
Regards, John
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Try Adorama for the body and KEH for the 28.
http://www.adorama.com/catalog.tpl?op=itemlist&cat1=Used&cat2=Contax G series&cat3=Cameras
http://www.adorama.com/catalog.tpl?op=itemlist&cat1=Used&cat2=Contax G series&cat3=Cameras
rphenning
Established
Not really feeling the Contax. Quick scan of some online viewpoints say that the camera is pretty noisy and a bit complicated I think for her. Thoughts on that JohnTF?
It's not complicated at all, far less than a Leica. Noise is relative, it does have a motor winder, so it's not silent.