Leica has a problem

[Nikon Bob]

So slap on the ND filter to your lens and that solves the problem...

That works for me. Today's films are just too fast, even the 100 speed variety in bright sun. I am speaking of using C41 colour and B&W films. As an alternative to an ND how about a polarizer? The only problem is sticking another piece of glass in front of some very expensive glass, but that is a whole other issue.

Bob

 

[ywenz]

That works for me. Today's films are just too fast, even the 100 speed variety in bright sun. I am speaking of using C41 colour and B&W films. As an alternative to an ND how about a polarizer? The only problem is sticking another piece of glass in front of some very expensive glass, but that is a whole other issue.

Bob

how do you use a polarizer with a Leica RF?

 

[sf]

buying new cameras

buying new cameras

Never buy new cameras, unless the risk of a lemon is great enough to warrant the extra cost. But if you buy used from a reputable dealer, the lemon issue is not an issue. I suppose that I would, if I had the money, buy my Leica gear from KEK or from Samys here in LA - used, since a new Leica performs as well as a used Leica. That is why they are worth something more than a Vivitar.

 

[Nikon Bob]

how do you use a polarizer with a Leica RF?

With great difficulty. Seriously, there are several ways of doing it described in some other thread on here. I only meant to use it as a substitute for an ND to drop a stop or so of light when using C41 film so orientation is not that important. A quick nad dirty work around for an ND if you do not have one.

Bob

 

[ywenz]

Well I suppose one could make a marking on the barrel to where the rotation shoudl be when standing 90deg to the right side of the sun. Then just calibrate out in the field.. that could work no?

 

[Uncle Bill]

My question is what does a Luxury goods house best known in my part of the world for neck ties and leathergoods know about optics and cameras? Point is Everyone who wants a Leica either has one or will be getting one with in the next year or two and will most likely be in the used market much to the chagrin of the boys and girls back in the old world. You want to grow the pie, you have to sell people on the joys of rangefinder photography, the main problem with a digital camera is as other people have pointed out here is the rapid turnover in technology. Pity the brain trust behind Leica was not reading this, I think they would have an eyefull about what we have been talking about. For me any potential Leica customer is someone with an M mount system either a CV Voightlander or a Zeiss Ikon when that hit the streets plus I would be using this forum and any Leica discussion group as a tool to better sell the product. Again they have to want it, this sort of reminds me the book I read on Magnum Photo Agency, brilliant photographers, poor business decision making. Same goes for Leica brilliant, product but too many missed opportunities, arrogance and stupidity can be a lethal combination.

Bill

 

[zeos 386sx]

You guys are losing me on this notion of technology turnover. If a camera satisfies your needs then it doesn’t matter how long you own the camera or what technological advances are being made.

I look at the problem from the standpoint of enlargement. If you don’t anticipate image enlargement beyond, say, 16x20 inches then there is no reason to buy more megapixels than is needed to give you that size enlargement. If a camera that you buy today still satisfies your enlargement needs 10 years from now it doesn’t matter what technological advances have been made in the intervening 10 years.

I think is possible to judge all aspects of digital image making in the same way we judge film image making. There isn’t anything wrong with decades-old 35mm Leicas despite decades of technological advances in photography. Why do you think that digital photography will change that?

 

[ywenz]

The 1st gen Digital M can indeed satisfy your needs.. but when the 2nd gen or 3rd gen comes out with much improved sensor and image quality, then that 1st gen camera won't look too appealing.

And don't think that we've reach the apex as far as camera sensor technology is concerned..

 

[macmac]

Photojournalists who are currently using Leicas today, such as NG photographers will have no need for a digital M and nor would they want it. As sure as I am that white is on rice, this digital M will have image quality no better than the current top of the line DSLRs. Which means it will still be generations away from the quality of film.

As it happens, I just bought my M4-P from a NG photojournalist. He was selling what he considered to be "an old friend" because NG will only take digital from its photographers now.

 

[Nikon Bob]

I do not think that the life span of a digital camera will be 10 years and how do you repair a 10 year old digital camera. There has not been much interest in repairing digital cameras to date and most are looked on as disposibles. A $4000 to $7000 camera housing disposible technologies is a little hard for me to grasp much less spend that kind of money on. As a pro making money from it with depreciation factored in maybe, but not as a hobbyist.

Bob

 

[ywenz]

As it happens, I just bought my M4-P from a NG photojournalist. He was selling what he considered to be "an old friend" because NG will only take digital from its photographers now.

!?! you're $hiting me right? This doesn't make any sense at all considering the slow turn-around time for NG articles.. and the fact that film based camera doesn't need electricity for charging which would be ideal for months in the field. The latest issue of NG I looked at was still predominantly film..

 

[Toby]

You guys are losing me on this notion of technology turnover. If a camera satisfies your needs then it doesn’t matter how long you own the camera or what technological advances are being made.

I look at the problem from the standpoint of enlargement. If you don’t anticipate image enlargement beyond, say, 16x20 inches then there is no reason to buy more megapixels than is needed to give you that size enlargement. If a camera that you buy today still satisfies your enlargement needs 10 years from now it doesn’t matter what technological advances have been made in the intervening 10 years.

I think is possible to judge all aspects of digital image making in the same way we judge film image making. There isn’t anything wrong with decades-old 35mm Leicas despite decades of technological advances in photography. Why do you think that digital photography will change that?

Technology turnover does not matter for an individual who already owns a camera and is happy with it. It does matter for a company competing in a rapidly evolving market place the specification of a camera is like the top speed of a car, you may never use it but is regularly used as a signifier of quality. Any company depends on new customers to keep it going Leica is far too conservative. Here is a list of things I think leica need to attract the modern consumer ( I don't like these things I'm just trying to give a commercial perspective)

a 1/4000 or 1/8000 top shutter speed

1/250 flash sync

A WYSIWYG CCD viewing system (separate viewfinders - not for new customers)

Telephoto lenses upto 500mm -hence CCD

Program modes

Zooms???

Viewfinder focus confirmation

5fps shooting abilty

These are not outrageous requests just things that the other manufatures already offer, there must be design benefits in CCD viewfinder compared to SLR that could Leica's starting point

 

[yossarian]

A brief diversion...

A brief diversion...

THIS is why I love coming to this site. I've read more incisive and intelligent comments in just this thread than you can get in a year anywhere else.

Frankly, I really think some of YOU should instigate a "hostile" takeover of Leica and set things straight.

Seriously, this is great stuff, people.

 

[macmac]

!?! you're $hiting me right? This doesn't make any sense at all considering the slow turn-around time for NG articles.. and the fact that film based camera doesn't need electricity for charging which would be ideal for months in the field. The latest issue of NG I looked at was still predominantly film..

I assure you not... That was the sole reason he sold it to me. It's a great camera which he used for stories all over the world and for some 15 years.

 

[Hektor]

Hi all, i've just logged on - haven't read all this long thread in detail yet but someone asked how to use a polarising filter with a leica....

easy, they sell a filter holder with a 180 degree hinge on one side, and you just flip it over the viewfinder, rotate to set position, and then flip it back over the lens.

Mine has a built in lens hood as well.

Regards JC.

 

[zeos 386sx]

Technology turnover does not matter for an individual who already owns a camera and is happy with it. It does matter for a company competing in a rapidly evolving market place the specification of a camera is like the top speed of a car, you may never use it but is regularly used as a signifier of quality.

Toby,

I understand what you are saying and I have nor problem with your starting point features for the digital M. But what I'm seeing in these arguments is the assumption that if Leica changes the camera or the imaging technologies improve generally that the owner of the first version digital M will be compelled to obsolete his old camera to keep up. The question being raised is "Why should I buy a camera that will be obsolete in three years." I reject that idea for the reasons I've given. It is one thing for Leica to be compelled to move to keep up with market changes and another to assume that Leica's users will be compelled to upgrade.

It has been suggested elsewhere, several times, that Leica design the camera to be modular. A camera designed that way might defy obsolescence.

 

[Uncle Bill]

Well keeping in mind what I said today, I love my Leica M3. Yes its delightfully obsolete compared to a Nikon D2x but unlike a digital camera that we all agree is a very expensive disposible camera, the M3 if well cared for will work for my grandkids as it did for my dad. Just think of all those digital cameras dead from some un replaceble circuit board in a landfill with all the materials leaching into the groundwater. Give me an M3/Contax IIIa, Nikon F, Asahi Pentax S1a over a digital camera any day of the week and I can make better photos then anyone with a DSLR

Bill

 

[Toby]

Toby,

I understand what you are saying and I have nor problem with your starting point features for the digital M. But what I'm seeing in these arguments is the assumption that if Leica changes the camera or the imaging technologies improve generally that the owner of the first version digital M will be compelled to obsolete his old camera to keep up. The question being raised is "Why should I buy a camera that will be obsolete in three years." I reject that idea for the reasons I've given. It is one thing for Leica to be compelled to move to keep up with market changes and another to assume that Leica's users will be compelled to upgrade.

It has been suggested elsewhere, several times, that Leica design the camera to be modular. A camera designed that way might defy obsolescence.

I agree with what your saying but think there should be a prosumer 'M' to keep the company afloat with repeat buys every two years -a realistic business strategy lower cost more 'disposable' bodies

 

[zeos 386sx]

Bill,
I'm not going to argue with your ability to make pictures - with any camera!
I will argue with the notion that a digital camera is automatically a "disposable".

 

[Nikon Bob]

Bill,
I'm not going to argue with your ability to make pictures - with any camera!
I will argue with the notion that a digital camera is automatically a "disposable".

There are already consumer digital movie camera(s) that store images on an internal hard drive so the question is how long will memory cards last. You do not see many new PCs that you can put a floppy disk into. It is these kinds of changes and others that make digitals disposable. With 35mm film the film has been around for eons, with improvements, but it is still basically the same now as at the start. The storage medium (film) has not changed nor has the receptor size (film). Which storage medium and receptor size will be standard in 5 or 10 years? Your guess is as good as mine and I sure do not know. If 35mm film is still available in 5 to 10 years I am pretty sure it will still fit in and be usable in my 30 to 70 year old cameras. Rapid advances in technologies almost equates to rapid obsolecence.

Bob