Leica III converted to IIIf BD with 1000th

[colyn]

I picked up a Leica III (s/n 140xxx 1934 vintage) converted to IIIfBD with the addition of 1/1000th shutter speed.

I was surprised at the fast speed since the III is topped out at 1/500th so
I pulled the top plate to verify the serial number of the crate and top plate which do match. This camera also has the newer shutter brake of the IIIc/IIIf models. The shell even has the locating pin which aligns with the hole on the CTOOM bracket.

I've seen model II's and III's converted before but not to the 1/1000th shutter speed.

Anybody ever see one of these??

 

[John Shriver]

There's no fundamental design difference between the shutter in the III and IIIa, the changes didn't really happen to until the IIIc and IIIcK. So upgrading a III to a IIIf isn't that challenging in the shutter department.

The interesting question is which second shutter curtain catch did they use, the one from the IIIa, or the one from the IIIc. The IIIc has a better design, where there's two eccentric cams, one is adjusted to fine tune 1/500, the other to fine tune 1/1000. They have a slot for adjusting. There's just one cam on the IIIa, and it's fixed. Getting 1/1000 accurate on a IIIa requires very accurate positioning of the shutter curtains on the drums and rollers.

If you feel like pulling the top again, have a look, even take a picture. Leica techs are curious.

 

[Erik van Straten]

People allways speak of conversions of II, III or IIIa into a IIf or IIIf, but conversions like that are impossible. The conversions are called IIasyn or IIIasyn when a synch was installed, the main reason for the conversion. The 1/1000 on these cameras is mostly just another 1/500.

Erik.

 

[colyn]

There's no fundamental design difference between the shutter in the III and IIIa, the changes didn't really happen to until the IIIc and IIIcK. So upgrading a III to a IIIf isn't that challenging in the shutter department.

The shutter brake gear has to be replaced with a newer IIIc/IIIf type as does the brake assembly which can be seen after removing the bottom cover. The shutter catch and speed disk also has to be replaced.

The interesting question is which second shutter curtain catch did they use, the one from the IIIa, or the one from the IIIc.

This one has the catch from a IIIc/IIIf.

 

[colyn]

People allways speak of conversions of II, III or IIIa into a IIf or IIIf, but conversions like that are impossible. The conversions are called IIasyn or IIIasyn when a synch was installed, the main reason for the conversion.

In what way is this impossible? The camera is upgraded with the addition of flash sync and the flash sync dial as on the IIIf..

While this camera is still a III it has been factory upgraded to IIIf specs.

The 1/1000 on these cameras is mostly just another 1/500.

Erik.

I don't understand what you are saying here..

A shutter catch with eccentric cam adjustment is used to release the closing curtain sooner which allows a smaller width slit. The curtains are still running at the same speed as before it just has a smaller slit..

Shutter speed is the result of a variable width slit not the actual speed at which the curtains are traveling..

 

[Dralowid]

Leica IIs and IIIs modified or converted to have 1/1000 are not that uncommon.

A II or III is a different sized camera to a IIIc or f. It is longer and the construction of the two is not the same. Technically speaking one cannot be converted exactly into the other.

Then there is the question of the viewfinder system on IIs and IIIs. I have never seen this converted to the later 'close together' type because this simply would not fit on the shorter camera or be compatible with the construction used.

So Erik is correct, a III can never become a IIIf. It becomes a 'short' camera with 'f' sync (and possibly speeds) but retaining the original viewfinder/rangefinder arrngement....unless you have something different!
(it also can have a higher top 'moulding' in which the accesory shoe stands a bit proud.)

Compare the two and it will become clear.

Michael

 

[colyn]

A II or III is a different sized camera to a IIIc or f. It is longer and the construction of the two is not the same. Technically speaking one cannot be converted exactly into the other.

I am well aware of the size etc differences and while they cannot be converted exactly like you say the conversions are known as III (or whatever model) to IIIf

Then there is the question of the viewfinder system on IIs and IIIs. I have never seen this converted to the later 'close together' type because this simply would not fit on the shorter camera or be compatible with the construction used.

I'm also aware of this.

So Erik is correct, a III can never become a IIIf. It becomes a 'short' camera with 'f' sync (and possibly speeds) but retaining the original viewfinder/rangefinder arrngement....unless you have something different!
(it also can have a higher top 'moulding' in which the accesory shoe stands a bit proud.)

Compare the two and it will become clear.

Michael

I agree. But as stated above they are know by most as III (or whatever model) to IIIf. My camera is for all intents and purposes still a III. It has been upgraded (official Leica term) to IIIf flash sync specs.

We can nit pick words all day long. Most will still call it a III/IIIf Leica.

 

[Erik van Straten]

We can nit pick words all day long. Most will still call it a III/IIIf Leica.

We can, but Michael just pointed out that it is not correct to call it a IIIf. The official name at Leitz for these cameras (when synched) was IIsynch, IIasynch (with 1/1000), IIIsynch or IIIasynch (with 1/1000). The other conversions, without synch, were called II, III or IIIa. Ic, IIc, IIIc, If, IIf or IIIf are completely other cameras.

Erik.

 

[Erik van Straten]

I don't understand what you are saying here..

The 1/1000 on the IIIa, IIa, IIasynch or IIIasynch is usually not working right, it is not reliable. You better do not use it. It is almost not possible for even the most experienced repair personnel to make 1/1000 work on these cameras. In fact also 1/500 and 1/20 should be avoided on these cameras because of fundamental technical incompleteness. On these cameras not every shutter speed can be calibrated independently, as on the M cameras.

Erik.

 

[colyn]

The 1/1000 on the IIIa, IIa, IIasynch or IIIasynch is usually not working right, it is not reliable. You better do not use it. It is almost not possible for even the most experienced repair personnel to make 1/1000 work on these cameras. In fact also 1/500 and 1/20 should be avoided on these cameras because of fundamental technical incompleteness. On these cameras not every shutter speed can be calibrated independently, as on the M cameras.

Erik.

Do you have documented proof of this claim which you are willing to post?

I have not tested this camera but my IIIa which has not been serviced since 1988 or there about is running within factory specs at all speeds as tested several months ago..

 

[Erik van Straten]

Do you have documented proof of this claim which you are willing to post?

I have not tested this camera but my IIIa which has not been serviced since 1988 or there about is running within factory specs at all speeds as tested several months ago..

On 1/500 one side of the negative will be darker than on the other, the same is true on 1/20 but reversed. This unevennes of exposure is caused by the slow running shutter. M-shutters for this reason run at 1/50, not at 1/20 as the I, II, III, IIIa to complete the travel over the filmgate.

Erik.

 

[colyn]

On 1/500 one side of the negative will be darker than on the other, the same is true on 1/20 but reversed. This unevennes of exposure is caused by the slow running shutter. M-shutters for this reason run at 1/50, not at 1/20 as the I, II, III, IIIa to complete the travel over the filmgate.

Erik.

I've used both of my IIIa's at the 2 speeds you mention with no evidence of this problem.

This would be caused by one or the other curtain tension not being properly adjusted (or see below) so both curtains would be running at different speeds.

If both curtain tensions are properly adjusted both curtains will be running the same speed and this issue will not occur.

The only shutter issue with the pre-IIIc models is when a hack is allowed to service this camera with the addition of new curtains and the new closing curtain is not properly measured and glued to the main shutter drum. This curtain has to be installed correctly. Once this is done the opening curtain can then be easily aligned.

 

[Roger Hicks]

I've used both of my IIIa's at the 2 speeds you mention with no evidence of this problem.

Dear Colyn,

Same here.

Though I have to agree that without the longer, die-cast body (much stronger and more rigid) the conversion is not really to full IIIf spec. And at that point it's a different camera...

Hair-splitting, of course. But hey, it's a LEICA. Probably there are those who get excited about the colour of the hairs you split.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Dralowid]

From a users perspective the shutter speed dial drops down properly on later conversions when 1/1000 is selected.

On earlier conversions (at least the ones I have) it sits up slightly when 1/1000 has been selected.

Apologies to those who have seen these pictures before and yes I know 1/1000 isn't selected in either!.

Michael

 

[Steve M.]

I would also think that it wouldn't make any difference to set it to 1/1000 vs 1/500. 1/500 is usually closer to 1/300, or 1/400 if you're lucky, and yes, I have a shutter tester and test all my cameras. This is true of all the old cameras, not just yours. But nothing beats shooting a test roll of film by bracketing and keeping your notes in order. It doesn't matter what the speeds are running as long as you know at what speeds it exposes properly. And if you're shooting B&W film being off even a few stops will not usually matter much, depending on the film type you're using.

Love the lens on yours Michael. Nice looking front element for a Summar.

 

[Roger Hicks]

I would also think that it wouldn't make any difference to set it to 1/1000 vs 1/500. 1/500 is usually closer to 1/300, or 1/400 if you're lucky, and yes, I have a shutter tester and test all my cameras. This is true of all the old cameras, not just yours. But nothing beats shooting a test roll of film by bracketing and keeping your notes in order. It doesn't matter what the speeds are running as long as you know at what speeds it exposes properly. And if you're shooting B&W film being off even a few stops will not usually matter much, depending on the film type you're using.

Love the lens on yours Michael. Nice looking front element for a Summar.

Dear Steve,

How do you test screw-mount Leicas with fixed backs? I have a shutter speed tester too and I'd be interested.

Also, given that it's a constant-tension shutter with variable slit-width, then as long as the slit-width at 1/1000 is smaller than at 1/500, 1/1000 has to be effectively 'shorter' (i.e. give less exposure) than 1/500.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Erik van Straten]

Dear Steve,

Also, given that it's a constant-tension shutter with variable slit-width, then as long as the slit-width at 1/1000 is smaller than at 1/500, 1/1000 has to be effectively 'shorter' (i.e. give less exposure) than 1/500.

The difference of the split at 1/500 and 1/1000 is minimal. The shutter is really slow running so in practice 1/500 and 1/1000 are the same.

Erik.

 

[Roger Hicks]

The difference of the split at 1/500 and 1/1000 is minimal. The shutter is really slow running so in practice 1/500 and 1/1000 are the same.

Erik.

Dear Erik,

The speed of running of the shutter is irrelevant. If the 1/1000 slit is narrower than for 1/500, then the effective shutter speed must be shorter in direct proportion to their relative widths.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Erik van Straten]

I've used both of my IIIa's at the 2 speeds you mention with no evidence of this problem.

Try this: stick a piece of ordinary printpaper on the window of your room at an hour when there is daylight. Put a b+w film in your camera. Put a 50mm lens on it, say, f/2. Put the lens against the paper and make an exposure at 1/1000 at f/2. Now change the shutterspeed to 1/500 and the aperture to f/2.8 and make another exposure. Now change the shutterspeed again, but now to 1/200 and the aperture to f/4 and make an exposure again. Repeat this with the following speed/aperture combinations: 1/100 at f/5.6, 1/60 at f/8, 1/30 at f/11 and 1/20 at f/12,5. Develop your film. In theory, all exposures should have the same density, but in practice ... On 1/1000 and 1/500 you'll notice uneven exposure and on 1/20 too, but reversed. If not, your camera is not working well.

Erik.

 

[Erik van Straten]

Dear Erik,

The speed of running of the shutter is irrelevant. If the 1/1000 slit is narrower than for 1/500, then the effective shutter speed must be shorter in direct proportion to their relative widths.

Dear Roger,

In theory you are right, ofcourse. In practice however the 1/20th of a second running time over the filmgate is too slow. Remember the running speed is not even, but it increases towards the end. All this caused serious exposure problems at the high speeds so Leitz choose for a faster running shutter for the later cameras. In fact only the 1/200, 1/100, 1/60, 1/40 and 1/30 speeds are reliable on the Leica I, II, III, IIIa and IIIb.

Erik.