Dazlan
Newbie
Good day all 
.
I stumbled upon a Leica III the Air Force edition for sale. The price for it is approx 7000 USD.
Now, I am no expert in Leicas so that is why I am kindly asking for help in various aspects.
Therefore:
1) Even if this camera was the real deal (which I doubt) the price is not high...it is in fact VERY high. The real retail value would be what..3000 USD max?
2) Is this camera fake? I think it is but I need a more advised opinion. My observations are:
- first thing first...the color. To my knowledge, Brass/Golden army Leicas are usually fakes.
- the viewfinder windows are not Leica like. By this I mean the two concentric circles which appear dubious to me.
- the "peak" of the shutter release button.
- the various traits of the German eagle
What do you think about this camera? Is it just a good fake/reproduction? If yes, what Russian camera would it be based on? Is there any chance that this camera would be real?
There is no chance of obtaining other pictures of it, nor there are any chances of me fiddling with it. I have given you all the info I need.
Thank you in advance for your help.
PS: A good war time Leica resource is this (it is in German): http://www.ebay.de/gds/Leica-Faelschung-/10000000001447987/g.html
.I stumbled upon a Leica III the Air Force edition for sale. The price for it is approx 7000 USD.
Please see the images below and than my comments:
Now, I am no expert in Leicas so that is why I am kindly asking for help in various aspects.
Therefore:
1) Even if this camera was the real deal (which I doubt) the price is not high...it is in fact VERY high. The real retail value would be what..3000 USD max?
2) Is this camera fake? I think it is but I need a more advised opinion. My observations are:
- first thing first...the color. To my knowledge, Brass/Golden army Leicas are usually fakes.
- the viewfinder windows are not Leica like. By this I mean the two concentric circles which appear dubious to me.
- the "peak" of the shutter release button.
- the various traits of the German eagle
What do you think about this camera? Is it just a good fake/reproduction? If yes, what Russian camera would it be based on? Is there any chance that this camera would be real?
There is no chance of obtaining other pictures of it, nor there are any chances of me fiddling with it. I have given you all the info I need.
Thank you in advance for your help.
PS: A good war time Leica resource is this (it is in German): http://www.ebay.de/gds/Leica-Faelschung-/10000000001447987/g.html
Vobluda
Well-known
I think that you should go for it, the price is fair and it is nice looking camera.
p.giannakis
Pan Giannakis
It is a fake, look at the viewfinder piece and it says "B" on the rewind button instead of "R.
Waus
Well-known
it's a 100% fake Luftwaffen Leica.
Vince Lupo
Whatever
That's a 100% fake, and a really ugly one at that. Worth maybe $50. This particular model is imitating a Leica II (no strap lugs, no slow speed dial). Don't waste your money.
A real one will be a Leica IIIb or IIIc, not gold (brass) as this one is (they'll usually be satin chrome or in some cases painted blue/grey), and won't have those crazy markings. Plus, the serial number should be verified as having been delivered to Berlin (Luftwaffen Headquarters). The serial number on this fake model (216xxx) isn't anywhere near the serial number range of real Luftwaffen cameras. Complete fabrication.
A real one will be a Leica IIIb or IIIc, not gold (brass) as this one is (they'll usually be satin chrome or in some cases painted blue/grey), and won't have those crazy markings. Plus, the serial number should be verified as having been delivered to Berlin (Luftwaffen Headquarters). The serial number on this fake model (216xxx) isn't anywhere near the serial number range of real Luftwaffen cameras. Complete fabrication.
wolves3012
Veteran
It's 100% FAKE. The body is a Zorki 1c and the lens is an Industar 22 - they haven't even gone to the trouble of using the more convincing FED Industar 10. Some people are attracted to them and I've seen them fetch £100 or more. $7000? Dream on!
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
What wolves says.
Anyway it's a Leica II copy, while the Luftwaffen camera's were IIIc type, meaning they have a slow speed dial at the camera front. And the IIIc's were greenish-gray paint, including the vulcanite. Vulcanite texture is off too. And if you would take of the lens, you'd see that the lens follower cam is either triangle or golf club shaped, but not the smooth-running round wheel that a true Leica has.
Worse: to de-chrome these camera's they're taken apart and often disassembled incorrectly afterwards. Result: looks fake and doesn't even work. Most malafide sellers will let you know 'it needs service and the price will increase once you have it serviced'.
Yeah, right.:bang:
Anyway it's a Leica II copy, while the Luftwaffen camera's were IIIc type, meaning they have a slow speed dial at the camera front. And the IIIc's were greenish-gray paint, including the vulcanite. Vulcanite texture is off too. And if you would take of the lens, you'd see that the lens follower cam is either triangle or golf club shaped, but not the smooth-running round wheel that a true Leica has.
Worse: to de-chrome these camera's they're taken apart and often disassembled incorrectly afterwards. Result: looks fake and doesn't even work. Most malafide sellers will let you know 'it needs service and the price will increase once you have it serviced'.
Yeah, right.:bang:
zuiko85
Veteran
If it were 7000 US cent's it would still be way overpriced.
noisycheese
Normal(ish) Human
David Hughes
David Hughes
Hi,
Welcome aboard; I'm sorry your first post resulted in a few downers...
If it will help, here's a Zorki next to a Leica.
There's lots of small detail differences but the 4 screws (black on Leica), the shutter release (Leica has no hole for cable release as completely different) and the view-finder surround are the main points to go for. The Leica shown here is a model 2 of 1935, btw. The model IIIc Leica which they used in the Luftwaffe has even more points of difference.
Just as a camera the Zorki has much to commend it but not as a fake Leica. One or two points about the Zorki are better than on the old Leicas, f'instance the shutter release surround and the cable release thread. Plus most Zorkis have coated lenses. A Zorki with the old Leitz type of shutter release would be worth chasing after but not at anything like Leica prices.
Regards, David
Welcome aboard; I'm sorry your first post resulted in a few downers...
If it will help, here's a Zorki next to a Leica.
There's lots of small detail differences but the 4 screws (black on Leica), the shutter release (Leica has no hole for cable release as completely different) and the view-finder surround are the main points to go for. The Leica shown here is a model 2 of 1935, btw. The model IIIc Leica which they used in the Luftwaffe has even more points of difference.
Just as a camera the Zorki has much to commend it but not as a fake Leica. One or two points about the Zorki are better than on the old Leicas, f'instance the shutter release surround and the cable release thread. Plus most Zorkis have coated lenses. A Zorki with the old Leitz type of shutter release would be worth chasing after but not at anything like Leica prices.
Regards, David
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rfaspen
[insert pithy phrase here]
You already know its fake, fake, fake. It irritates me that they actually ask and expect a ludicrous amount of money.
David provided a photo comparing a Zorki and Leica III, detailing many of the differences. A real wartime Leica (Luftwaffen included) will have yet other differences. As mentioned earlier, that would be a IIIb or (more likely) IIIc body which can easily be determined by looking at the upper area around the lens. Earlier Leicas and Zorkis have vulcanite fully surrounding the lens mount. Later Leica IIIc has metal around the upper portions (I really should stick a photo in here, but can't right now). Both IIIb and IIIc will have a "combined" viewfinder. Not a true combined viewfinder, the the framing window and rangefinder window will be right next to each other and surrounded by a common eyepiece. And another thing to check for in a wartime Leica is the stepped top plate. Again, a picture would be best here, but the rewind lever on a wartime Leica will be over a step in the top plate. Earlier and later Leicas, and all Zorkis/Feds won't have this. Of course another feature to look for (but faked on the more sophisticated Fakes) is serial number. I think wartimes all start with 360xxx to 390xxx range (I could easily be wrong about that, don't have my reference with me). Some of those serials could have a "K" along with them. Again, that's sometimes faked by the more capable crooks. Last thing, if the camera has a lens, that can help determine a fake too, but not definitive. Your fake has an Industar-22 lens (elmar-like Russian copy) that has a couple characteristics to look for. One is the aperture ring doesn't have a little tab, just a knurled ring. The other is the distance scale markings. When looking at the front of the camera, the numbers on the left side (short distances) will be upside down. On a real elmar, they aren't.
Many other little differences that we could detail, but enough already. I sure hope you didn't buy that awful fake.
David provided a photo comparing a Zorki and Leica III, detailing many of the differences. A real wartime Leica (Luftwaffen included) will have yet other differences. As mentioned earlier, that would be a IIIb or (more likely) IIIc body which can easily be determined by looking at the upper area around the lens. Earlier Leicas and Zorkis have vulcanite fully surrounding the lens mount. Later Leica IIIc has metal around the upper portions (I really should stick a photo in here, but can't right now). Both IIIb and IIIc will have a "combined" viewfinder. Not a true combined viewfinder, the the framing window and rangefinder window will be right next to each other and surrounded by a common eyepiece. And another thing to check for in a wartime Leica is the stepped top plate. Again, a picture would be best here, but the rewind lever on a wartime Leica will be over a step in the top plate. Earlier and later Leicas, and all Zorkis/Feds won't have this. Of course another feature to look for (but faked on the more sophisticated Fakes) is serial number. I think wartimes all start with 360xxx to 390xxx range (I could easily be wrong about that, don't have my reference with me). Some of those serials could have a "K" along with them. Again, that's sometimes faked by the more capable crooks. Last thing, if the camera has a lens, that can help determine a fake too, but not definitive. Your fake has an Industar-22 lens (elmar-like Russian copy) that has a couple characteristics to look for. One is the aperture ring doesn't have a little tab, just a knurled ring. The other is the distance scale markings. When looking at the front of the camera, the numbers on the left side (short distances) will be upside down. On a real elmar, they aren't.
Many other little differences that we could detail, but enough already. I sure hope you didn't buy that awful fake.
j j
Well-known
Engraving the English word "Germany" on the camera is a bit of a clue!
Paulbe
Well-known
dazian--please tell us you did NOT spend 7K on that camera...
clicker
Well-known
Scam, don't fall for it.
Rangefinderfreak
Well-known
I see lots of these fakes in Helsinki. Guys have bought them in Moscow or St.Peterburg and spent some money on them, then asking us LSF (Leica Shooters Finland) if the camera is real or fake, as some of their friends have said they might have bought a fake. I feel sorry for them, suggesting they try to sell them again and buy a real leica instead.
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
How can anyone seriously be suckered in by these?
David Hughes
David Hughes
Hi,
Very few people have handled a Leica, certainly far fewer have handed a 30's or 40's Leica and FED and Zorkis are very good copies of a Leica. I think I've handed enough of both (Leicas and FED/Zorkis) and they do feel right.
As for the Nazi bits, who's seen them in real life; as opposed to forum life?
I feel sorry for them but can understand them taking the bait.
Regards, David
Dralowid
Michael
I am pleased that the OP, Dazlan, took time to ask this forum...well at least I hope he did...
The camera itself is awful. There are some quite nice 'plain' Leica II copies out there, this is not one of them.
Michael
The camera itself is awful. There are some quite nice 'plain' Leica II copies out there, this is not one of them.
Michael
Dazlan
Newbie
HELLO and THANK you for ALL your answers.
No, I did not spend the 7000 USD on the camera. Its 6500 EU in fact, because I am from the EU.
SPECIAL thanks goes to wolves3012!!!!
PS: I think I am going to have a little chat with the seller, now that I have the info's you guys gave me!
(NO, I do not mean violent actions). Probably he is more ignorant than I am when it comes to Leicas.
2WK
Rangefinder User
I found a website a while back where the real Luftwaffe Leicas were explored in great detail. Aside from all the obvious reasons why this one is a fake, the originals were not gold, nore did they have swastikas on them.