Rob-F
Likes Leicas
I'm interested in the ball bearings that have been used in the IIIc at various times. I thought I had understood that the first set used, during WWII, was constructed like a conventional ball bearing, and is referred to by some enthusiasts as the "full race" bearing. And at some later point, a simplified construction, now known as the "half race" was substituted.
In a recent email exchange, my IIIc technician wrote that the difference is not in the construction of the bearing, but in the number of them used. He said that ball bearings were first used at the top and bottom of the main shaft, and the top and bottom of two tension rollers. Following a redesign, a single ball bearing was used at the top of the main shaft only.
So much has been said about the construction of the "half race" bearing that I'm sure it's more than an internet myth. But my tech, despite having had hundreds of IIIcs apart, apparently has not noticed a difference. I think some observations from those who have worked on examples of both types would make good reading! Were the bearings in later production IIIcs constructed more simply? Or were they fewer in number? A little of both? Let's hear it!
In a recent email exchange, my IIIc technician wrote that the difference is not in the construction of the bearing, but in the number of them used. He said that ball bearings were first used at the top and bottom of the main shaft, and the top and bottom of two tension rollers. Following a redesign, a single ball bearing was used at the top of the main shaft only.
So much has been said about the construction of the "half race" bearing that I'm sure it's more than an internet myth. But my tech, despite having had hundreds of IIIcs apart, apparently has not noticed a difference. I think some observations from those who have worked on examples of both types would make good reading! Were the bearings in later production IIIcs constructed more simply? Or were they fewer in number? A little of both? Let's hear it!
enasniearth
Well-known
bearings
bearings
you are correct on the k marked cameras , top and bottom had ball and race =
some military marked cameras had ball and race on rewind .
there were a number of cameras produced post surrender 1945 with k type bearings and no markings on body or shutter = production unknown -however
not in strict number sequence - as bodies were not assembled in number order .
there was a group with a white k on shutter , chrome ,no marks on top plate = these were small production item just useing up k cloth - still k type assembly .
the half race was late 1945 . leitz thought the ball bearings were overkill [so went for ball race only in critical area .
later iiic had flat top under rewind lever and bearings were similiar to those considered half race .
half race is an internet term . when i talked to several repair persons
they were unaware of that terminology.
most consider the late cameras with step and the post 1946 flat top the same shutter type .
return to full ball bearings with iiif red dial .
if anyone has more information or correction please add your information
this is what i understand from talking with various repair people .
bearings
you are correct on the k marked cameras , top and bottom had ball and race =
some military marked cameras had ball and race on rewind .
there were a number of cameras produced post surrender 1945 with k type bearings and no markings on body or shutter = production unknown -however
not in strict number sequence - as bodies were not assembled in number order .
there was a group with a white k on shutter , chrome ,no marks on top plate = these were small production item just useing up k cloth - still k type assembly .
the half race was late 1945 . leitz thought the ball bearings were overkill [so went for ball race only in critical area .
later iiic had flat top under rewind lever and bearings were similiar to those considered half race .
half race is an internet term . when i talked to several repair persons
they were unaware of that terminology.
most consider the late cameras with step and the post 1946 flat top the same shutter type .
return to full ball bearings with iiif red dial .
if anyone has more information or correction please add your information
this is what i understand from talking with various repair people .
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Rob-F
Likes Leicas
Yes, you know, I think I must have one of those. It is in chrome, and John tells me it does have a full set of complete bearings. It is 392000 series. And I think you must be right about "half race" being an internet term. My repair guy, John Maddox, who specializes in the LTM cameras, wasn't familiar with it either. I didn't see a K on the shutter curtain, but no matter--John said it needs replacement anyway--pinholes.
Thanks for the info--between you and John, I think I have a grip on this now.
enasniearth
Well-known
bearings
bearings
the k types with no marks on top plate chrome with white k on shutter are a small group of 200 in the 391xxx series .
your 392xxx was unlikely to have the white k on shutter , although some cameras in the 392xxx series had k bearings on the drums . seems to be that regular bearing cameras were also in the 392xxx series and you do not know which is which without serviceing . cameras were not for the most part assembled in strict number sequence and leitz was useing up wartime parts on these cameras so there may be many odd combinations delivered post may 8 1945 (germanys surrender )
at least with your camera you can replace the curtains without destroying its historical significance .
of the user leicas the iiif red dial has the full bearing shutter and is a more modern camera .
the iiic wartime is a well designed and built camera of the highest standard however wartime shortages of materials cause many differances . these differances do cause great collecter interest .
bearings
the k types with no marks on top plate chrome with white k on shutter are a small group of 200 in the 391xxx series .
your 392xxx was unlikely to have the white k on shutter , although some cameras in the 392xxx series had k bearings on the drums . seems to be that regular bearing cameras were also in the 392xxx series and you do not know which is which without serviceing . cameras were not for the most part assembled in strict number sequence and leitz was useing up wartime parts on these cameras so there may be many odd combinations delivered post may 8 1945 (germanys surrender )
at least with your camera you can replace the curtains without destroying its historical significance .
of the user leicas the iiif red dial has the full bearing shutter and is a more modern camera .
the iiic wartime is a well designed and built camera of the highest standard however wartime shortages of materials cause many differances . these differances do cause great collecter interest .
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Erik van Straten
Veteran
From the official spare parts list and servicing instructions from Leitz in the 1960's it is clear that in EVERY Ic, IIc, IIIc, If, IIf, IIIf, Ig and IIIg with serial numbers higher than 451001 three ball bearings were used, one of 14 balls of 1,5 mm, a double one of 2 x 9 balls of 1,2 mm and one of 12 balls of 1 mm.
Erik.
Erik.
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NikonSP
Member
If memory serves, my post war IIIc SN: 404094 has the full race shutter. It had the shutter curtains replaced in 1995. I do not have the original curtains anymore. I cannot find them. I asked the repairman if it had the ball race shutter. He said it did and they all came out or something of that nature. The balls were on the top and bottom. Maybe one day I can get an Xray of the camera and be sure. A lot of early post war stuff is very mixed up like my transition 50mm Sonnar.
MISH
Well-known
[QUOTE
of the user leicas the iiif red dial has the full bearing shutter and is a more modern camera.[/QUOTE]
OK educate me.... I was not aware the IIIf RD had a bearing shutter. What is the difference between the shutter on a IIIc K body and a IIIf RD?
of the user leicas the iiif red dial has the full bearing shutter and is a more modern camera.[/QUOTE]
OK educate me.... I was not aware the IIIf RD had a bearing shutter. What is the difference between the shutter on a IIIc K body and a IIIf RD?
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
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Erik van Straten
Veteran
My grey IIIc (387599, 1941, not a military camera) has been serviced. And guess what? This camera, that wears no markings whatsoever, has ball bearings too. Before this service the shutter springs were over-tensioned, so you didn't feel it when working with the camera, but now the camera is MUCH lower tensioned the difference with my other Barnacks is clearly felt. Ball bearings!
This brings me to the assumption that ALL grey IIIc's have ball bearings, but that only those that were intended for military use were marked as such with stamps on their curtains and the "K" after the serial number to comply with certain military regulations.
I've been re-reading P.H. van Hasbroeck "Leica A history ..." from 1983 on the subject. He states on page 87: "Many grey IIICs and IIIcks were supplied to the military purchasing office of the German forces in Berlin, where (as we have seen) the military identification marks were engraved on them."
The question is if the "K" is a military identification mark. Van Hasbroeck sees the IIIck as a separate model. I doubt that. I think that the "K" was only a identification mark applied to the camera by the military to indicate that the camera has ball bearings, not a mark placed on the cameras by Leitz.
Erik.
This brings me to the assumption that ALL grey IIIc's have ball bearings, but that only those that were intended for military use were marked as such with stamps on their curtains and the "K" after the serial number to comply with certain military regulations.
I've been re-reading P.H. van Hasbroeck "Leica A history ..." from 1983 on the subject. He states on page 87: "Many grey IIICs and IIIcks were supplied to the military purchasing office of the German forces in Berlin, where (as we have seen) the military identification marks were engraved on them."
The question is if the "K" is a military identification mark. Van Hasbroeck sees the IIIck as a separate model. I doubt that. I think that the "K" was only a identification mark applied to the camera by the military to indicate that the camera has ball bearings, not a mark placed on the cameras by Leitz.
Erik.
Mr_Flibble
In Tabulas Argenteas Refero
My two unmarked Leica IIIc "K" cameras (according to the ledgers), less than 40 units apart in serial number.
Delivered to the US Army of the Occupation in the summer of 1945.
Delivered to the US Army of the Occupation in the summer of 1945.
Erik van Straten
Veteran
Delivered to the US Army of the Occupation in the summer of 1945.
The US Army had no regulations for German cameras I guess, so why bother with stamps and engravings.
Erik.
Mr_Flibble
In Tabulas Argenteas Refero
These would've been sold through the PX to any GI who could afford them, unlike military issued cameras to Signal Photo Companies or Intelligence officers.
There was a US Signal Corps designation and Technical Manual for the Leica IIIa (I think), despite them being marked as"Non Standard" in the Table of Organisation & Equipment for the SPCs in 1944. The TO&E called for 13 Leicas per company.
Anyway, for these 'non-mil-spec' cameras Leica cut some corners.
The guy that serviced the one on the right said that some light seal material certainly were non-standard.
There was a US Signal Corps designation and Technical Manual for the Leica IIIa (I think), despite them being marked as"Non Standard" in the Table of Organisation & Equipment for the SPCs in 1944. The TO&E called for 13 Leicas per company.
Anyway, for these 'non-mil-spec' cameras Leica cut some corners.
The guy that serviced the one on the right said that some light seal material certainly were non-standard.
Erik van Straten
Veteran
That light seal material would have been be good for my gray camera too: it leaked light from the front in the left film chamber (seen from the front). I slipped some black plastic material into the camera. Helped.
I guess that my camera was used as a professional camera after the war, maybe in a communist country, for it must have been used a lot. Scherpenborg said that the camera was completely worn and James Lager said the same. But somehow I like it and I use it from time to time with a coated Summar mounted.
Erik.
I guess that my camera was used as a professional camera after the war, maybe in a communist country, for it must have been used a lot. Scherpenborg said that the camera was completely worn and James Lager said the same. But somehow I like it and I use it from time to time with a coated Summar mounted.
Erik.
davidnewtonguitars
Family Snaps
Erik van Straten
Veteran
No, for that the serial number was enough. Military people love markings, stamps, stars and things like that on their cameras, but for civilians these were not necessary and made the cameras only more expensive.
Erik.
davidnewtonguitars
Family Snaps
Thanks, I didn't understand the military would be purchasing cameras for the PX sales to soldiers. In my time in the military, the PX system was a concession.
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
Well, in my time in the Air Force, I never saw a Leica in the Base Exchange (BX). I did buy a Yeshiva-Mat, though, and they did have a baby Rollei! (This was 1959 through 1963)
A lesser-known Israel-assembled variant of the classic Yashica twin lens, perhaps?
Erik van Straten
Veteran
I have another war time IIIc, a chrome one with red curtains. The camera looks like new, but the curtains are swollen and sticky. So I have a dilemma: leave it as it is with those exotic red curtains or replace the curtains to have another working Leica. Serial number is 374820. What shall I do?
Erik.
Erik.
Highway 61
Revisited
Given the large amount of working Leicas (all models) being in your house, I should leave it as it is to keep the testimony of the use of this funky red cloth material for the wartime IIIc shutters.