Leica IIIf - uncommon light leak - untight curtains?

[paniolo]

Hello Photographers,

First of all, I use Kentmere 400 Film (similar to Ilford HP5) pushed to ~1000 asa.

I just developed some rolls of film and noticed these stripes all over the negatives. They appear mainly on frames that were shot on bright sunlight and with some delay on advancing to the next frame.
No stripes on frames that were taken in cloudy light conditions and rapidly one after the other.

The shutter curtains look very good and nearly as new but I imagine that they are not "100%" light tight.

Any recommendations how to solve that problem?

I have included one picture with heavy stripes, just shot on the next day after one night of cocked shutter. The second is shot with a delay of about 1 minute after the previous in bright sunlight.

any recommendations to solve this?

just some "raw" scans, no dust removed ;-)

 

[Sparrow]

... do the stripes go across the gap between frames? ... that looks more like a processing fault to me, or even something wrong with the film

 

[B-9]

I have to say, im a little baffled by those dark lines.

I really dont see that being caused by a light leak, atleast I have never seen a light leak create black lines, they tend to "burn" brightly.

Ide say you should wipe down your pressure plate, and possibly blow out the film chamber to start. Ide then question what could have caused this during the developing process? Possibly when being spooled onto your tank reel?

 

[02Pilot]

The only time I ever saw anything like that was when I underfixed a roll and then squeeged with my fingers (not having noticed that I underfixed) after it came out of the tank.

 

[paniolo]

thanks for your responses so far.

no, the stripes dont go across the frames. they are just inside.
and no, i dont squeege the film after fixing. Just washing it with water for several minutes and hang it up to dry.
I use a Jobo 1520 tank for 2x 135 films and have developed many films before without any uncommon issue.
The main reason why I think its the camera is, that I have developed some rolls of my Leica CL too. They were pushed to 1000ASA too without any problems. No stripes or anything like that. Even 2x films at once, 1 from the CL the other from the IIIf. No error with the CL one.

And B-9 you are totaly right. Light leaks should appear bright and not dark.


I should mention, that I never use a lens cap when I stroll around.
Maybe I should burn a testroll and put the camera in light for different times and see what happens.
As I said, its only appearing on pictures in bright sunlight. And little to no effect in cloudy or darker light settings.

Mainsettings were: ASA 1000, f16-22, Elmar 5cm 3.5 (coated) / Elmar 3,5cm (uncoated) - same error. Maybe some inner barrel reflection of the lens itself? 😵 But whats with the 3,5cm Elmar, there is no real barrel.

 

[Filzkoeter]

Were those shot at 1/1000? The slit at the highest speed is quite narrow, if there's not enough tension on the first curtain (old lubes) it could be too slow (so the slit get's even narrower). The first picture has less exposure on the left side (right side of the shutter, where the movement starts) then on the right side (the artifacts are also stronger on the left side).
What possibly happens: the sides of the shutter curtains are not even (that's normal, on the IIIf the ends of the curtains are just fabric folded over and sewed/glued together), if the slit get's too narrow the unevenness causes those dark lines.
Do you also have shutter capping sometimes?

You could try to add some more tension on the first curtain (easy to DIY, you only need a screwdriver to take the bottom cover off and a fitting screwdriver to add curtain tension)... but your IIIf propably should be CLA'd.

Take a look here: http://www.pentax-manuals.com/manuals/service/screw_mount_leicas.pdf

 

[rodinal]

I agree with this hypothesis.
Moreover, if the borders of the curtains are not even, you will also notice this kind of unevenness of exposure precisely at higher shutter speeds (narrower slit). I saw this with a damaged Nikon shutter once.

Were those shot at 1/1000? The slit at the highest speed is quite narrow, if there's not enough tension on the first curtain (old lubes) it could be too slow (so the slit get's even narrower). The first picture has less exposure on the left side (right side of the shutter, where the movement starts) then on the right side (the artifacts are also stronger on the left side).
What possibly happens: the sides of the shutter curtains are not even (that's normal, on the IIIf the ends of the curtains are just fabric folded over and sewed/glued together), if the slit get's too narrow the unevenness causes those dark lines.
Do you also have shutter capping sometimes?

You could try to add some more tension on the first curtain (easy to DIY, you only need a screwdriver to take the bottom cover off and a fitting screwdriver to add curtain tension)... but your IIIf propably should be CLA'd.

 

[Sparrow]

I've not seen that before, but I suppose it could be that.

How close are the curtains at 1/1000?

As it isn't present between frames it has to involve the light coming from the front of the camera being masked by the frame ... and the shutter is about the only thing there. If the lines were going top to bottom I'd be blaming the scanner ... but as Holmes said "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

You have checked that it's on the film I suppose?

 

[ian_watts]

The banding in the OP's example looks extreme but is consistent with a light leak problem that was an intermittent problem with my Leica M-A body over a number of months. In the first attached example, the leakage in the middle of the frame is obvious but there is also an odd banding in the upper left (as shown) that shows up in certain frames (not always at the same time as the more obvious bright leak in the middle – see second example snap). The obvious leak problem occurred using a range of shutter speeds but the banding seems to be present only in bright light (which suggests that 1/1000 was being used). I'd like to be able to say what the definitive cause was but Leica have replaced the camera rather than attempt to repair it.

 

[Sparrow]

... that looks a lot more like a classic light leak to me

 

[ian_watts]

... that looks a lot more like a classic light leak to me

It's the banding in the upper part of the frame (significantly less obvious than in the OP's example) that I am drawing attention to, not the more obvious leakage in the middle. Sometimes it helps to read what people write.

 

[paniolo]

Thanks for the responses so far!
indeed my IIIf needs a CLA, my shutter release is always a bit "sticky" delaying for 1/2 second for the first release after hours of not using it but beeing cocked and put away. Every shot beyond the first one is releasing well. Could be old lubs.

At all it realy occurs only on images taken with 1/500 and 1/1000. That would describe the missing of these stripes on cloudy weather where i generaly use a 1/125 or 1/250.

Well, so if I understand it correct the shutter curtain is "stuttering"?
But why are these lines horizontal and not vertical?


Can it be fixed by a CLA or is it more serious?

 

[karlin]

I had the same problem with a iiif in 1/1000.

 

[Dwig]

It's an interesting theory but the slit travels horizontally. If one of the curtains was dragging or stuttering (momentarily closing the slit) shouldn't, as paniolo asks in his latest post, the banding appear vertically?😕

Correct. Any form of "banding" that is caused by uneven shutter travel will result in bands that are 909 degrees to the direction of the shutter travel. With a horizontally traveling shutter, like the OP's, the bands would be vertical in the first image and not horizontal.

Such horizontal banding, if caused by the camera, could only be the result of uneven slit width. If the end "caps" on the shutter curtains are not smooth and perfectly parallel throughout their travel, the slit will be uneven. If the edges have some wavey shape that is relatively large compared to the narrow slit width at the top speeds then that could be the cause. Also, if the end "caps" are not a metal cap but, instead, a sewn hem then the sticthes could be producing a series of reasonably uniformly spaced pinholes or tears. Since these would be hidden between exposures its possible that they wouldn't leave noticable traces except when they become relatively large compared the the high speeds' narrow slit. This doesn't seem likely, but would be possible in theory. Such pinholes would leave lighter areas of increased exposure which would seem at odds with the OP's issue of darker bands.

 

[Sparrow]

... that looks a lot more like a classic light leak to me

It's the banding in the upper part of the frame (significantly less obvious than in the OP's example) that I am drawing attention to, not the more obvious leakage in the middle. Sometimes it helps to read what people write.

em? yes sorry, how about ... it looks lighter than the surrounding image, ... whereas the fault on the OP's images look to be darker than one would expect?

 

[ian_watts]

em? yes sorry, how about ... it looks lighter than the surrounding image, ... whereas the fault on the OP's images look to be darker than one would expect?

Yes, could be. It's difficult to tell being much fainter compared with OP's banding problem (there's also a bit of the old zebra question – are they black stripes on white or white stripes on black?).

 

[paniolo]

I am still not sure how to solve the problem.
Is it a general problem with all Leica screwmount cameras?
Is it caused only on my example and can be fixed with a CLA?
Is it the fault of the Kentmere 400 film I have pushed to ~1000 ASA and use it in bright sunlight with high shutter speeds? (it occurs on 1/500 too, I rarely use the 1/1000 top speed)

I realy love that camera :/

 

[Stuart John]

Get the camera a CLA if you intend to use it. It's not much use at the moment in bright light with high shutter speeds.

 

[ChrisLivsey]

I am still not sure how to solve the problem.
Is it a general problem with all Leica screwmount cameras?
Is it caused only on my example and can be fixed with a CLA?
Is it the fault of the Kentmere 400 film I have pushed to ~1000 ASA and use it in bright sunlight with high shutter speeds? (it occurs on 1/500 too, I rarely use the 1/1000 top speed)

I realy love that camera :/

If you love it show it some love and get a CLA that shutter needs attention from a technician. It is not the film it is not general to screw mount it is the shutter in your camera
at high speeds get it serviced, BTW did i mention it needs a service/CLA ?

 

[paniolo]

Ok, I would give it for CLA anyway 🙂
but good to know its not a general problem with old slit shutters and pushed film. 😉
you guys confused me very well with your stories about photons and stuff.