dee
Well-known
Wel , I had my 1/2 day in Leica M 8 tuition , and what an eye opener it was .
Firstly , Brett , the professional , was down to earth and approachable , and cut a swathe through all the needless concerns over raw or jpeg .
He uses jpeg for all of his projects . He also liked to do minimal post processing , which is great for me , raised on slide film i also confirmed that , for my tastes , the camera is over eposing , so I have adjusted it .
i found that I knew much more than I anticipated , and had the opportunity , both to see stunning monochrome images , but to set my M 8 up , as the two others did , to optimise b/w shooting .
With a borrowed Leica 50mm F 2.5 , even my results were promising ... with more useable shots that my '' friendly competion ''.
i simply have more confidence in the camera , my abilities , ... and no longer feel that I am not good enough to own what is seen as a rareified out of my class icon .
But I want that lense !!!!
Firstly , Brett , the professional , was down to earth and approachable , and cut a swathe through all the needless concerns over raw or jpeg .
He uses jpeg for all of his projects . He also liked to do minimal post processing , which is great for me , raised on slide film i also confirmed that , for my tastes , the camera is over eposing , so I have adjusted it .
i found that I knew much more than I anticipated , and had the opportunity , both to see stunning monochrome images , but to set my M 8 up , as the two others did , to optimise b/w shooting .
With a borrowed Leica 50mm F 2.5 , even my results were promising ... with more useable shots that my '' friendly competion ''.
i simply have more confidence in the camera , my abilities , ... and no longer feel that I am not good enough to own what is seen as a rareified out of my class icon .
But I want that lense !!!!
jplomley
Established
Please do share setting up the M8 to optimize B&W shooting. Curious minds want to know...
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
yep...
Please do share - specifically for those of us who are not in Europe or the U.S. who don't get that sort of "training".
WRT RAW vs JPEG - to each his/her own - but having shot in RAW since my first digital camera - and knowing the type of shots that I've saved due to, mostly, flash issues or sudden changes in lighting, I will remain with my RAW workflow thanks
Cheers
Dave
Please do share - specifically for those of us who are not in Europe or the U.S. who don't get that sort of "training".
WRT RAW vs JPEG - to each his/her own - but having shot in RAW since my first digital camera - and knowing the type of shots that I've saved due to, mostly, flash issues or sudden changes in lighting, I will remain with my RAW workflow thanks
Cheers
Dave
lilyblossom
Member
I also attended this course (yesterday) in London hosted by Brett and also found it to be excellent fun and really informative.
I'm not convinced about shooting everything jpeg but what I did take away was that I now have a user setting setup for RAW+jpeg (fine) which is set to black and white. If I want to shoot something as black and white, I'm using that setting and using the B&W jpeg. He recommended setting contrast to high and it definitely does render nice 'colour' and an overall nice soft effect. However, I still have the RAW image if I want to work on it or use the colour version.
Here are some of the pictures I took:
http://gallery.mac.com/pantster#100932&bgcolor=black&view=grid
I particularly like the 5 images before the colour pictures and I quite like the colour ones too. For reference, Brett is the guy behind the M8 in the first picture.
Phillip
I'm not convinced about shooting everything jpeg but what I did take away was that I now have a user setting setup for RAW+jpeg (fine) which is set to black and white. If I want to shoot something as black and white, I'm using that setting and using the B&W jpeg. He recommended setting contrast to high and it definitely does render nice 'colour' and an overall nice soft effect. However, I still have the RAW image if I want to work on it or use the colour version.
Here are some of the pictures I took:
http://gallery.mac.com/pantster#100932&bgcolor=black&view=grid
I particularly like the 5 images before the colour pictures and I quite like the colour ones too. For reference, Brett is the guy behind the M8 in the first picture.
Phillip
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I'm glad you got what you wanted from the course Dee but for me I see the M8 as an incredibly uncomplicated camera with very limited menu options. My old Nikon D70s is far more complex and a user course in getting the best from it would have benefitted me far more when I first purchased it three years ago.
The amount of variables in settings that the M8 doesn't have to complicate digital photography has impressed me since I got it ... and like Dave I'm unconvinced about the value of shooting in JPEG in preference to raw. Now and then an otherwise well shot pic can potentially be written off to due an error in exposure ... with raw there is far more scope to recover these types of images and achieve a satisfactory end result. YMMV of course!
The amount of variables in settings that the M8 doesn't have to complicate digital photography has impressed me since I got it ... and like Dave I'm unconvinced about the value of shooting in JPEG in preference to raw. Now and then an otherwise well shot pic can potentially be written off to due an error in exposure ... with raw there is far more scope to recover these types of images and achieve a satisfactory end result. YMMV of course!
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lilyblossom
Member
Actually, the course isn't really about how the camera works. It's half a day with a professional photographer talking about M8 photography, shooting with the M8 and then all reviewing the pictures.
I would say that it probably wouldn't appeal to any of my friends who are extremely competent professional photographers but as a keen amateur coming into the Leica M system, I found it immense fun.
One of the biggest benefits I had from the day was it gave me much more confidence to wonder around the streets, camera in hand and just take pictures of random people doing interesting things. It's something I'm completely comfortable doing with friends but something I feel very self conscious about in public.
(Having said all this, I am sure that they would aim it at any level depending on the competency of the group)
Phillip
I would say that it probably wouldn't appeal to any of my friends who are extremely competent professional photographers but as a keen amateur coming into the Leica M system, I found it immense fun.
One of the biggest benefits I had from the day was it gave me much more confidence to wonder around the streets, camera in hand and just take pictures of random people doing interesting things. It's something I'm completely comfortable doing with friends but something I feel very self conscious about in public.
(Having said all this, I am sure that they would aim it at any level depending on the competency of the group)
Phillip
jplomley
Established
I just find that there are so many post-acquisition processing tools available to control the Color>>B&W conversion process with such a high level of fine tuning that I don't think I would ever be happy with a B&W JPEG where that control is removed. I suppose as a "quick and dirty" looksee to preview a monochrome rendition, but then this is pretty easy to do in C1 with the panchromatic icc profile. Seems to me I'd just be filling my memory card with a lot of useless information if I captured JPEG as well as RAW. Or am I completely off base and missing a key advantage of the dual file format approach?
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
That's sort of how I see it as well - although I do know a lot of photogs that use the dual file format - if it looks "right" right out of the camera then what's the point of using the RAW but if it's "all bad" at least you can post process the RAW after the fact.
With respect to digital B&W - that was part of the reason for continuing to shoot B&W film - there is, an inexplicable quality to the distribution of grain in B&W film imho over the somewhat "weird" distribution of noise in a digital image. Most "out of the camera" B&W photos tend to be, at least to me, "flat" and lacking depth per se. The tonal range seems to be very two dimensional. I wish I could find a better way to explain it but that's how I see it and describe it with my limited knowledge of such things
Digital B&W is VERY VERY VERY (ad infinitum) close to B&W film now but, still, there's something about a pure B&W film image, once printed, that seems almost magical.
Cheers
Dave
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
That's sort of how I see it as well - although I do know a lot of photogs that use the dual file format - if it looks "right" right out of the camera then what's the point of using the RAW but if it's "all bad" at least you can post process the RAW after the fact.
With respect to digital B&W - that was part of the reason for continuing to shoot B&W film - there is, an inexplicable quality to the distribution of grain in B&W film imho over the somewhat "weird" distribution of noise in a digital image. Most "out of the camera" B&W photos tend to be, at least to me, "flat" and lacking depth per se. The tonal range seems to be very two dimensional. I wish I could find a better way to explain it but that's how I see it and describe it with my limited knowledge of such things
Digital B&W is VERY VERY VERY (ad infinitum) close to B&W film now but, still, there's something about a pure B&W film image, once printed, that seems almost magical.
Cheers
Dave
That's interesting ... I feel exactly the same way. While I'm quite happy to shoot colour with my M8 and marvel at the quality of the files ... black and white can only be film for me. I have yet to see a black and white image from an M8 that moves me the way certain film monochromes do!
jplomley
Established
And that is exactly why my Mamiya 7 is always loaded with Delta 400! But the M8 is just soooo much fun to shoot with. In fact, since getting the M8 three weeks ago, my Mamiya 7 has not seen the light of day. But I'm sure it's just a novelty thing...gulp.
lilyblossom
Member
I totally agree re. RAW which was why I was convinced to try RAW+JPEG for B&W and not drop RAW altogether as suggested. However, one of the key themes of the day was capturing as perfect shot as possible without the need of any post-processing. The theory being you then have more time for actual shooting.
I was also convinced of this because I have had very disappointing results converting colour images to B&W inside Apple's Aperture 2, does anyone have any experience of a good workflow to convert RAW images to B&W in Aperture, fairly easily and with good results?
I was also convinced of this because I have had very disappointing results converting colour images to B&W inside Apple's Aperture 2, does anyone have any experience of a good workflow to convert RAW images to B&W in Aperture, fairly easily and with good results?
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
I wouldn't use the RAW converter to do the adjustments for B&W conversion (well, ok, I may use Lightroom because it offers a LOT of control) but would, instead, use Photoshop for the conversion process.
I have a basic "convert to B&W" action that I'll have to look at again because I know that there are tweaks that can be done whilst converting.
Dave
I have a basic "convert to B&W" action that I'll have to look at again because I know that there are tweaks that can be done whilst converting.
Dave
dee
Well-known
Well , it stirred up some interesting points !
As i said to Brett , I have not graduated to Raw files / conversion / application , because I am a Mac novice too .
I could concurr with the remaks concerning monochrome film having a greater '' depth '' or whatever it is ... but I don't have the opportunity to make my own prints and the dee-light of the M 8 is to be able to create photos inexpensively and play with them a bit on the mac .
For me , unusually perhaps , using my M 8 [ and Dig 3 ] as a relief from an autistically challenged '' dee'sruption '' - so the images I capture in jeg , or in less-than-perfect monochrome , are much better than no images !
This was my 1st ever tutorial in 60 years , so I was graefull for the experience .
As i said to Brett , I have not graduated to Raw files / conversion / application , because I am a Mac novice too .
I could concurr with the remaks concerning monochrome film having a greater '' depth '' or whatever it is ... but I don't have the opportunity to make my own prints and the dee-light of the M 8 is to be able to create photos inexpensively and play with them a bit on the mac .
For me , unusually perhaps , using my M 8 [ and Dig 3 ] as a relief from an autistically challenged '' dee'sruption '' - so the images I capture in jeg , or in less-than-perfect monochrome , are much better than no images !
This was my 1st ever tutorial in 60 years , so I was graefull for the experience .
Ascender
Established
Wow! I'm glad you had a great experience SHOOTING with Brett. I, like other members here, remain unconvinced with the benefits of shooting JPG over RAW. For my money, the JPG's that the M8 produces leave much to be desired .... they're just not very good conversions. Apart from that, I find it much more advantages to just shoot RAW and create B/w's or whatever to my own liking. Historically I've had way better success creating B/w images from RAW's in the actual photo editor. I really don't see any advantage whatsoever shooting B/w even if the M8 produced high quality ones. The fact that one can shoot RAW with digital the do whatever one chooses in the post is what is perhaps one of the most liberating aspects of the medium and conversely what was so limiting with film.
However, I would be very interested to see how Brett advised you to set up your JPG's in-camera so that they didn't have that jagged feel to them. I also use a D3 and bar the fact that it rates at an extra 2MP, the JPG's of that camera are light years ahead of what the M8 produces yet for reasons previously stated, I choose to shoot RAW. I think it boils down to how confident one is in one's ability to produce great B/w or colour images in the post.
-charlie
However, I would be very interested to see how Brett advised you to set up your JPG's in-camera so that they didn't have that jagged feel to them. I also use a D3 and bar the fact that it rates at an extra 2MP, the JPG's of that camera are light years ahead of what the M8 produces yet for reasons previously stated, I choose to shoot RAW. I think it boils down to how confident one is in one's ability to produce great B/w or colour images in the post.
-charlie