Guth
Appreciative User
I looked at the recent thread discussing the merits of the Leica M2 and the Minolta CLE. The majority of people lobbied for the M2 with the thought that it would be more durable and repairable over the long run. I couldn’t help but think “what will the camera repair landscape look like in another five, ten, or twenty years from now?” It seems that there are currently a very limited number of technicians who are capable of this work that forum members actually trust to work on their prized Leica cameras.
Here in the States we’ve pretty much obliterated industrial arts programs in our schools, turning future generations away from trades that we’ve taken for granted in many cases. I’m told time and again that we’ve become a “disposable society” and that seems hard to argue with. I’m not getting the sense that there are too many qualified individuals who will be drawn to this work going forward. For that matter even if some individuals did emerge, would there be enough people willing to pay them the amount of money required for living wage fees in the decades to come?
I honestly have no clue how this all plays out. I do find it interesting in that I don’t seem to have the same level of confidence that many others seem to have in future resources. Will Leica themselves possibly become the only realistic repair facility and if so at what expense and turnaround time? I’m guessing that others here must have a different vision of the future when it comes to this particular subject. I’m all ears (or rather all eyes in this case), perhaps just hoping to feel a bit more hopeful.
Here in the States we’ve pretty much obliterated industrial arts programs in our schools, turning future generations away from trades that we’ve taken for granted in many cases. I’m told time and again that we’ve become a “disposable society” and that seems hard to argue with. I’m not getting the sense that there are too many qualified individuals who will be drawn to this work going forward. For that matter even if some individuals did emerge, would there be enough people willing to pay them the amount of money required for living wage fees in the decades to come?
I honestly have no clue how this all plays out. I do find it interesting in that I don’t seem to have the same level of confidence that many others seem to have in future resources. Will Leica themselves possibly become the only realistic repair facility and if so at what expense and turnaround time? I’m guessing that others here must have a different vision of the future when it comes to this particular subject. I’m all ears (or rather all eyes in this case), perhaps just hoping to feel a bit more hopeful.
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Ccoppola82
Well-known
The market exists as long as film remains a viable option. Someone will inevitably see the dollar signs and take the intiative. That being said, I have had my M bodies CLA’d as soon as I get them so that they hopefully last me the rest of my life. Perhaps one of the existing techs could make some extra $ by doing workshops on the basic repairs like rangefinder alignment and shutter sync stuff?
sepiareverb
genius and moron
Well, Leica NJ has that one tech. 18 months for a CLA will become the new norm.
Guth
Appreciative User
Maybe. But even if that does prove to be the case, I wonder at what cost? How much more would people be willing to pay for such services in the future, would anyone flinch if the price for this work doubled or more?
Skiff
Well-known
I am quite relaxed concerning this topic.
Because:
1. Leica has explained at Photokina that the demand and their production of their Film models MP and M-A is increasing.
And their general commitment to long term service is in their "DNA", it is one of their major sales arguments. Therefore they will care for service.
2. With the susutainable film revival the market will increase. That means the demand for repairs and service will also increase. All camera repair people I know have told me that they have lots of work, the demand is increasing and they are getting more and more business from young film photographers.
That means the job as professional camera technician has a future.
3. In Europe young technicians are already entering the market and educate themselves in camera repair. That will happen in North America and Asia, too. The market is there.
Look at the project of "Camera Rescue" in Finland. They have built up a national camera repair center, put together all nationwide experienced camera repair experts and have connected them. They also educate and train young camera repair technicians. Recently they have hired a young electronic technician to extend their service into the electronics repair. And they sell the repaired cameras internationally.
I think their business model is a role model for other continents and countries.
https://camerarescue.org/
https://www.instagram.com/camerarescue/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCilJi2N-KtEi_gzvqNgnjFQ/videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=uQAqSQOK_gc
https://www.facebook.com/camerarescue.org
Because:
1. Leica has explained at Photokina that the demand and their production of their Film models MP and M-A is increasing.
And their general commitment to long term service is in their "DNA", it is one of their major sales arguments. Therefore they will care for service.
2. With the susutainable film revival the market will increase. That means the demand for repairs and service will also increase. All camera repair people I know have told me that they have lots of work, the demand is increasing and they are getting more and more business from young film photographers.
That means the job as professional camera technician has a future.
3. In Europe young technicians are already entering the market and educate themselves in camera repair. That will happen in North America and Asia, too. The market is there.
Look at the project of "Camera Rescue" in Finland. They have built up a national camera repair center, put together all nationwide experienced camera repair experts and have connected them. They also educate and train young camera repair technicians. Recently they have hired a young electronic technician to extend their service into the electronics repair. And they sell the repaired cameras internationally.
I think their business model is a role model for other continents and countries.
https://camerarescue.org/
https://www.instagram.com/camerarescue/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCilJi2N-KtEi_gzvqNgnjFQ/videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=uQAqSQOK_gc
https://www.facebook.com/camerarescue.org
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Interested to read which EU based repairman/woman would get y'alls endorsement for tightening the springs in my Leica II, and collimating the camera mount for correct focus?
I sent it to a repairman in the UK who underperformed and I'm not sending it there again.
I would like to send it to Alan Starkie in the UK but am unwilling to have it sit in a parcel while Brexit and possible future customs delays mess the shipping up...
Let's not suggest He Who Shall Not Be Named in The Netherlands, I am no fan of his work with bodies and last time I mentioned that here, he phoned me at my sisters wedding anniversary and lectured me for 45 minutes, on a Sunday. :bang: Told me all kinds of stories on other customers (details and all) to prove he did a good job...
I sent it to a repairman in the UK who underperformed and I'm not sending it there again.
I would like to send it to Alan Starkie in the UK but am unwilling to have it sit in a parcel while Brexit and possible future customs delays mess the shipping up...
Let's not suggest He Who Shall Not Be Named in The Netherlands, I am no fan of his work with bodies and last time I mentioned that here, he phoned me at my sisters wedding anniversary and lectured me for 45 minutes, on a Sunday. :bang: Told me all kinds of stories on other customers (details and all) to prove he did a good job...
I just sent a body to Alan, got there quickly and passed through customs the day after it arrived.
Just fill out the customs documents as outlined on his website.
Just fill out the customs documents as outlined on his website.
As far as Leica techs go, Leica has always dominated in terms of value in the collector market. If demand were soft prices would be a lot lower. Techs will fill the demand for service as there are plenty of people willing to pay; not necessarily so for gear with lesser value/softer demand.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
It's not getting it there that troubles me, they're still in the EU until end or March.
It's receiving it back after March, where there all of a sudden might be paperwork required for return shipping, that isn't even available now to fill out...
Godfrey
somewhat colored
Worrying about one to three decades into the future of camera repair is likely just a terrific waste of time. I may not last that long myself ... I'm over sixty already, after all. There's a limit to how much medical science can do to keep me alive as well.
G
G
It's not getting it there that troubles me, they're still in the EU until end or March.
It's receiving it back after March, where there all of a sudden might be paperwork required for return shipping, that isn't even available now to fill out...
Well I’m not the the EU and return shipping was not a problem either. I’ve only sent them 8 or so cameras over the past couple of years, no issues coming or going.
Quite confident the usual array of shippers will handle anything after March, just as they do now.
Steve M.
Veteran
As long as there are vintage cameras around there will be people who will repair them (for what that's worth). I've found that it makes much more sense to sell a cranky old camera and replace it with another one, rather than wade into the morass that is Camera Repair Land.
Canon, Nikon, Leica, Pentax and the like sold many, many millions of cameras, so it will be a loooong time before that stock is depleted to danger point, especially since only a few people shoot film anymore.
Canon, Nikon, Leica, Pentax and the like sold many, many millions of cameras, so it will be a loooong time before that stock is depleted to danger point, especially since only a few people shoot film anymore.
Guth
Appreciative User
Worrying about one to three decades into the future of camera repair is likely just a terrific waste of time. I may not last that long myself ... I'm over sixty already, after all. There's a limit to how much medical science can do to keep me alive as well.
I'm not all that many years behind you. But there's no worrying involved on my part, more just a bit of contemplation as I own a Leica camera. I take photos purely for enjoyment so this topic is pretty lightweight for me. I do however find it to be an interesting topic for discussion and appreciate everyone's thoughts.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Larry Cloetta
Veteran
I am not sure why the price of high quality repairs would need to go up in the future (adjusted for inflation), let alone double. Technicians who are so in demand that there is a wait list can name their own price.
We’ve got an uncomfortable number of not-that-young people around here with PhDs and Masters degrees who make smoothies at Jamba Juice all day or tend bar because they got faddish degrees in fields for which there are no jobs. Those are the people who should be worried about a living wage.
People with skills which others find useful and necessary, like Leica repair or plumbing, or welding, are never going to worry about making a good living.
The problem with camera repair isn’t the lack of attractive job prospects, it’s finding the training and investing the time needed to get good enough at it that you can write your own ticket. Which is going to take a while.
The few remaining techs in the U.S. are so busy it’s not cost efficient for them to train new blood. A few trade schools with decent programs would be a good start. The aforementioned enterprise in Finland is encouraging.
I’m not convinced the “film camera renaissance” is real, or real enough, but if it turns out to be strong enough, infrastructure, including new repair technicians will inevitably follow.
Guth
Appreciative User
When I talk about prices going up, I'm simply referring to supply/demand. If new talent doesn't enter into this line of business soon then it is not hard to imagine the few remaining techs deciding to bump up their prices. As far as people who are employed in trades are concerned, of course they'll do well. Perhaps even better than before as people have largely turned their backs on such pursuits, instead trying to push nearly every young person straight into college as if that's the answer to everything. Because of this many industries that rely on people who can actually work with their hands are begging for talent. I'm guessing that the same likely applies to professions like camera repair.
This is exactly why I am imagining rising prices for such work. A few trade schools with decent programs would be a good start, but in this country at least we've been heading in just the opposite direction for some time now so I don't see that happening any time soon.
This is exactly why I am imagining rising prices for such work. A few trade schools with decent programs would be a good start, but in this country at least we've been heading in just the opposite direction for some time now so I don't see that happening any time soon.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
What Guth says, and there's another development that also increases repair prices: increasing camera prices.
Five, six years ago you could get a good M6 for under EUR 800, now expect to pay double for a good one. I like Barnacks but finding a good one in black paint and nickel cost me 400 a few years back and again, price has doubled.
Leicas aren't like other brands, Leicas are considered luxury goods and are collectable.
Increasing wealth around the globe increases the amount of collectors, increases prices, increases reapir prices.
Finally, Leica owners have a tendency to have their cameras over-CLAd, some cameras and lenses get routine CLAs before going on sale and are sent to a repairperson for a check-up by their new owners
Five, six years ago you could get a good M6 for under EUR 800, now expect to pay double for a good one. I like Barnacks but finding a good one in black paint and nickel cost me 400 a few years back and again, price has doubled.
Leicas aren't like other brands, Leicas are considered luxury goods and are collectable.
Increasing wealth around the globe increases the amount of collectors, increases prices, increases reapir prices.
Finally, Leica owners have a tendency to have their cameras over-CLAd, some cameras and lenses get routine CLAs before going on sale and are sent to a repairperson for a check-up by their new owners
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Repair of film Leica depends only at one factor. Spare parts to be available.
Spare parts could be supplied by Leica as long as they are willing to do it.
Here is also cyber theory what everything could be done by 3D printer. Including electronic (recent thread). This is utopia.
Back to Leica parts, all it takes is change of ownership. Next ownership could easily end it.
When Mad Max comes. Think about it. Leica is the last 35mm film cameras maker. Like real cameras. Not Lomo junk or some miracle F6.
As of Leica cameras been collective item and for rich people. It is nothing but wild guess. Nobody really knows how many Leica are in real use and how many are in the precios status . Same applies for CLA frequency .
Nobody knows. From my used to be local store I acquired M3 ELC DS with C seal, plus rusted take in spool and I have seen and tested those two black ELC M4 as next to trashed during original use and then neglected for at least decade. Sporadic slow speeds, lost (black) film reminders, tops deeply scratched by Leica meters. Yet, apparently only 500 were made...
Spare parts could be supplied by Leica as long as they are willing to do it.
Here is also cyber theory what everything could be done by 3D printer. Including electronic (recent thread). This is utopia.
Back to Leica parts, all it takes is change of ownership. Next ownership could easily end it.
When Mad Max comes. Think about it. Leica is the last 35mm film cameras maker. Like real cameras. Not Lomo junk or some miracle F6.
As of Leica cameras been collective item and for rich people. It is nothing but wild guess. Nobody really knows how many Leica are in real use and how many are in the precios status . Same applies for CLA frequency .
Nobody knows. From my used to be local store I acquired M3 ELC DS with C seal, plus rusted take in spool and I have seen and tested those two black ELC M4 as next to trashed during original use and then neglected for at least decade. Sporadic slow speeds, lost (black) film reminders, tops deeply scratched by Leica meters. Yet, apparently only 500 were made...
benlees
Well-known
I think Godfrey is spot on. Why worry about such things? If you have a Leica (or anything!), use it. These are consumer goods, after all. Consume, make pictures!
But to put your mind at ease, people still make/repair (horse) saddles, carburetors, and any decent paleoarchaeologist can make nice sharp hide scraper from a piece of flint.
But to put your mind at ease, people still make/repair (horse) saddles, carburetors, and any decent paleoarchaeologist can make nice sharp hide scraper from a piece of flint.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Sure, there's nothing to be said with great certainty about the amount of cameras in collections or the amount of unneeded CLAs. But that does not mean it does not happen all the time.
See the text from a Leica M2 sale in the classifieds right now and tell me whether this is a) much seen when selling a Leica and b) unnecessary visits of the camera to a repairman from a photographers standpoint.
I have nothing to prove to anyone, just saying this here.
It's nice out, I'm gonna go shoot.
See the text from a Leica M2 sale in the classifieds right now and tell me whether this is a) much seen when selling a Leica and b) unnecessary visits of the camera to a repairman from a photographers standpoint.
I have nothing to prove to anyone, just saying this here.
It's nice out, I'm gonna go shoot.