ezrahilyer
Newbie
I know that this thought has been beaten almost to death, and that there have been several attempts to accomplish this, but I would like to gauge interest in a Leica M* conversion.
With the new M9, the advances in sensor technology is apparent, and especially with the new Kodak full frame sensors (and micro-lenses to prevent falloff at the edges of the sensor) doing a full-frame Leica M conversion seems to be a possibility.
To the extent that I am investing a great deal of time and energy to develop a prototype. I will be using 16 megapixel full-frame Kodak sensors.
The product is intended not to be simply a digital back; as there is not really enough room to install all the electronics in the small back door of the M camera, this would be a conversion kit. There would be a new rear door that would house the CCD, and the rear LCD display. Also the bottom film load would be replaced with battery housing/SD card slot, and a processor in the take-up side.
These conversions would be intended to be done in-house at first, and then perhaps a kit would be made available for those who would prefer to do it themselves.
The CCD will be 2mm farther from the rear lens element, than the original film-plane, so a rangefinder adjustment would be needed (and done at time of install)
There would be no modification done to the camera itself, so that the conversion would be fully reversible, and upgradeable.
(This is not an offer to sell, it is merely an attempt to gauge interest, and demand before I pour more of my $$ into the project.)
My questions for you:
1: What is an acceptable target price to be a reasonably affordable alternative to the M9? Keep in mind, that the sensors alone will be nearly $1000 each from Kodak.
2: Would a lower priced product using a cropped sensor (like the M8) be desired?
3: What feature requests do you have?
With the new M9, the advances in sensor technology is apparent, and especially with the new Kodak full frame sensors (and micro-lenses to prevent falloff at the edges of the sensor) doing a full-frame Leica M conversion seems to be a possibility.
To the extent that I am investing a great deal of time and energy to develop a prototype. I will be using 16 megapixel full-frame Kodak sensors.
The product is intended not to be simply a digital back; as there is not really enough room to install all the electronics in the small back door of the M camera, this would be a conversion kit. There would be a new rear door that would house the CCD, and the rear LCD display. Also the bottom film load would be replaced with battery housing/SD card slot, and a processor in the take-up side.
These conversions would be intended to be done in-house at first, and then perhaps a kit would be made available for those who would prefer to do it themselves.
The CCD will be 2mm farther from the rear lens element, than the original film-plane, so a rangefinder adjustment would be needed (and done at time of install)
There would be no modification done to the camera itself, so that the conversion would be fully reversible, and upgradeable.
(This is not an offer to sell, it is merely an attempt to gauge interest, and demand before I pour more of my $$ into the project.)
My questions for you:
1: What is an acceptable target price to be a reasonably affordable alternative to the M9? Keep in mind, that the sensors alone will be nearly $1000 each from Kodak.
2: Would a lower priced product using a cropped sensor (like the M8) be desired?
3: What feature requests do you have?
sanmich
Veteran
don't the 2mm added to the distance mess your infinity focusing?
Makten
-
That would also mean that M lenses can't reach infinity. Sounds like a bad idea.
Edit: Too slow...
ezrahilyer
Newbie
I had intended to use the 2mm for a dust protector between the light box, and CCD, so you are saying that this will do more than require a rangefinder adjustment, and that this is a lens limitation?
In that case, I will have to modify the design to move the dust shield into the light box, and this will allow the CCD to remain at the original film-plane distance.
Thanks for the input! This is exactly the kind of thing I am looking for.
-Ezra
In that case, I will have to modify the design to move the dust shield into the light box, and this will allow the CCD to remain at the original film-plane distance.
Thanks for the input! This is exactly the kind of thing I am looking for.
-Ezra
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
How would you trigger the electronics? And that cloth shutter will cause constant dust problems.
I'm not sure there would be much of a market for this even at $2,000 (which would seem to be the least you could charge). You are in the used M8 price range.
I'm not sure there would be much of a market for this even at $2,000 (which would seem to be the least you could charge). You are in the used M8 price range.
Benjamin
Registered Snoozer
There are plenty of people that will be 'interested', don't worry about that!
Full frame may well be the deal breaker though, you probably know that already. Being able to focus @ infinity as well, of course, is beyond important.
Affordability next to the M9 may also be of concern. Presumably you would need to shift quite a volume of product to keep pricing for the conversion or kit competive..?
Still, many out there have spent a lifetime (or what they would like to think of as a lifetime) using Leica M's and would like to keep to the classic style, as opposed to the TTL type M8/.2 and M9..
Also, congratulations on not making this thread a POLL. God, I despair of those threads. I look forward to seeing how it turns out!
Best of luck to you ser.
Full frame may well be the deal breaker though, you probably know that already. Being able to focus @ infinity as well, of course, is beyond important.
Affordability next to the M9 may also be of concern. Presumably you would need to shift quite a volume of product to keep pricing for the conversion or kit competive..?
Still, many out there have spent a lifetime (or what they would like to think of as a lifetime) using Leica M's and would like to keep to the classic style, as opposed to the TTL type M8/.2 and M9..
Also, congratulations on not making this thread a POLL. God, I despair of those threads. I look forward to seeing how it turns out!
Best of luck to you ser.
BillP
Rangefinder General
How would you:
Communicate shutter release?
Handle shutter cocking?
Communicate ISO?
Communicate aperture?
Communicate metering?
Regards,
Bill
Communicate shutter release?
Handle shutter cocking?
Communicate ISO?
Communicate aperture?
Communicate metering?
Regards,
Bill
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
Then there is the custom programming, and the vignetting problem with wide angles that Leica is dealing with in the M9 in a digital camera built on purpose. There is probably a reason nobody is doing this.
benmacphoto
Well-known
And to add to Bills questions, how would all the electronics and circuit boards fit into a film M? Its just not possible.
M8's are hitting such low prices now (one sold for 1700 here in the classifieds) that its just not economical to make such a digital back for a film M.
M8's are hitting such low prices now (one sold for 1700 here in the classifieds) that its just not economical to make such a digital back for a film M.
Benjamin
Registered Snoozer
So, granted it's going to be more than just difficult to retro fit a digital back/whatever to 50 year old camera, but harder battles have been fought for far less.
It'd would be nice to see some optimism for a change. Yes, I know it's the internet..
How far have you got so far?
It'd would be nice to see some optimism for a change. Yes, I know it's the internet..
How far have you got so far?
Benjamin
Registered Snoozer
It is if people want one.
Want, and economy are not the best cousins.
Also, the M8:
If this dude can actually figure out to make it work, surely we should be giving him some encouragement?
What on the forum hasn't?
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BillP
Rangefinder General
There is a difference between optimism and blind faith. I for one would be absolutely delighted to see a digital back for an M, but if it were that easy it would have been done already.
"Ye cannae fight the laws of physics..."
Regards,
Bill
ezrahilyer
Newbie
I would use the existing shutter as the trigger. ( intend to keep the feel of the camera the same, IE: the user would still set the shutter speed, and use the lever advance.)
The CCD would dump data when the shutter returns to the closed position. (with a microswitch to detect this)
The ISO would be set with a control on the new backplate. But exposures would still be done as with film. Take your light reading, transfer to camera, and shoot. But with the ability to review the shot!
I want the camera to still work, and feel like a classic M.
As to the shutter causing dust problems; I would have the conversions done in a class 100 clean-room, and the dust blown off, but you are probably right that there would be dust entering the system when the lenses are changed. I would expect that a cleaning with compressed air would be in order once in a while.
I have a Nikon DSLR, and I have to blow the sensor off once in a while.
On The leica, you would just go to Bulb mode, and open the shutter, and blow it out once a week, or month.
The pricing... Yes, after pricing out the Kodak sensors, I can appreciate why the M9 costs an arm and a leg. When i first went into the project I intended on a price range of $800 to $900 for the kit, but with the cost of the Kodak CCD, that is not remotely possible.
The other options are a CMOS sensor (not quite as good, but cheaper)
or a crop sensor like the M8
The advantage of this kit would be that it would be full-frame and thus I would expect that it would be more desired than a used M8.
What do you think?
-Ezra
Benjamin
Registered Snoozer
Just for today, I'm in favour of blind faith. Who said anything about fighting physics though? Rules are there to be bent, not broken.
BillP
Rangefinder General
So, ISO is set on the back...
How and where will you set white balance?
How and where will you indicate number of shots?
How will you format an SD card? Review and delete images when out and about?
How will you set date and time for exif?
If you use a CMOS sensor, how will you dissipate the heat generated?
Regards,
Bill
How and where will you set white balance?
How and where will you indicate number of shots?
How will you format an SD card? Review and delete images when out and about?
How will you set date and time for exif?
If you use a CMOS sensor, how will you dissipate the heat generated?
Regards,
Bill
BillP
Rangefinder General
Benjamin
Registered Snoozer
Not to be unkind, but what's your history with electronics, engineering, etcetera?
Have you tried anything similar in the past? It will surely be interesting to see the prototype, and I said before, best of luck with the work. Anything that gives people more options with regard to RF cameras in the digital world is to be encouraged.
Benjamin
Registered Snoozer
Pardon me, slight sense of humor failure.
benmacphoto
Well-known
I remember a few years back, maybe 2007, someone on the forum posted a prototype digital conversion they did on a old screwmount Leica. From what I remember nothing really came out in the test photos.