morgan
Well-known
I agree about the no LCD. On my R-D1 I leave it flipped around almost all the time anyway. I think going only RAW is fine too. I personally never shoot jpgs. If it worked, I'd really consider this. Pricewise for me, it'd have to be less than say $1500ish. Also, there are size differences between most of the M's. Have you thought about what models your mod would be applicable for?
Makten
-
You're right, but the software would cost.
LeicaFoReVer
Addicted to Rangefinders
I would certainly like to see that at the end. It was always my dream to design something like that. I always wanted that digifilm would become real (was that what it called? That thing which fits in the film socket and that has sensor as film).
So just for you to know...we are watching you Ez
Good luck.
So just for you to know...we are watching you Ez
Good luck.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
A design like this was considered way before the M8 came out. At that time Leica claimed that it was not possible - but in the intervening years sensor/software etc technology has gone forward big time.
The back on a M can be removed (at least on pre-M6 cameras) by sliding the two pins on the hinge. On M6 and later there are contacts that will interfere.
If you can get a 24x36 sensor with the "corrective" edge pixels and adapt that as a thin back replacement - and then add a bottom mount housing (similar to a Rapidiwnder/Leicavit) for batteries and cards. The whole thing could be an integrated part so that on your M2/M3/M4 etc - you just popped off the back, put on the base/sensor and be ready to go. The only control thats needed on the sensor would be an iso setting and/or possibly a white balance (the latter would require a screen of some kind for checking though). What is more important would be a better high ISO capability as the M8 and M9 are rather poor at anything beyond 1250 iso.
If the sensor could be put in place of the filmplane - the shutter would remain unaffected. It would be a "marriage" between traditional M handling and digital output.
If you wanted a "fully loaded" digital - you would go M8/M9 - your back would be an alternative to the film camera with similar capabilities and less "menu driven" options. The whole point would be to keep it simple - with the software available from PS/LR etc - processing would be done at that stage (just as is done with film - the image is latent in the film until you get home and "soup" it).
Good luck and, yes, I would get one for one of my M2's - as long as the instruction manual is no more than 12 pages (like the old M2 manual).
The back on a M can be removed (at least on pre-M6 cameras) by sliding the two pins on the hinge. On M6 and later there are contacts that will interfere.
If you can get a 24x36 sensor with the "corrective" edge pixels and adapt that as a thin back replacement - and then add a bottom mount housing (similar to a Rapidiwnder/Leicavit) for batteries and cards. The whole thing could be an integrated part so that on your M2/M3/M4 etc - you just popped off the back, put on the base/sensor and be ready to go. The only control thats needed on the sensor would be an iso setting and/or possibly a white balance (the latter would require a screen of some kind for checking though). What is more important would be a better high ISO capability as the M8 and M9 are rather poor at anything beyond 1250 iso.
If the sensor could be put in place of the filmplane - the shutter would remain unaffected. It would be a "marriage" between traditional M handling and digital output.
If you wanted a "fully loaded" digital - you would go M8/M9 - your back would be an alternative to the film camera with similar capabilities and less "menu driven" options. The whole point would be to keep it simple - with the software available from PS/LR etc - processing would be done at that stage (just as is done with film - the image is latent in the film until you get home and "soup" it).
Good luck and, yes, I would get one for one of my M2's - as long as the instruction manual is no more than 12 pages (like the old M2 manual).
You might buy an old camera such as a Kodak DCS460 to play with. This is a Nikon N90 with a 6MPixel KAF-6300 back on it. Communications between the back and the camera was between the Databack connections. The minimum that is really required for a trigger is the Flash sync.
The DCS-100 was a Nikon F3 with a 1.3MPixel back, again Databack connections served as the trigger. Firmware for these Backs was little more than reading the CCD out, appending some data, and storing on a FAT-16 card.An embedded microcomputer on a chip could do much the same.
Various companies make Eval kits for their CCD's. Usually the chip, a programmable controler, and interface. It's been a while since I've looked at one. I should google it.
Just the first one that popped up.
http://focus.ti.com.cn/cn/lit/ug/socu005/socu005.pdf
The DCS-100 was a Nikon F3 with a 1.3MPixel back, again Databack connections served as the trigger. Firmware for these Backs was little more than reading the CCD out, appending some data, and storing on a FAT-16 card.An embedded microcomputer on a chip could do much the same.
Various companies make Eval kits for their CCD's. Usually the chip, a programmable controler, and interface. It's been a while since I've looked at one. I should google it.
Just the first one that popped up.
http://focus.ti.com.cn/cn/lit/ug/socu005/socu005.pdf
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squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
Has anyone, here or elsewhere, ever made a working prototype of a system like this?
I remember back when the Sigma DP-1 came out, somebody immediately disassembled it and grafted it onto the back of a Contax G-system camera...they were all torn apart and held together with rubber bands! I googled but couldn't find the photo of this monster...
I remember back when the Sigma DP-1 came out, somebody immediately disassembled it and grafted it onto the back of a Contax G-system camera...they were all torn apart and held together with rubber bands! I googled but couldn't find the photo of this monster...
mooge
Well-known
just to point out- putting the sensor 2mm behind the film plane is not such a good idea, that's putting it beyond infinity. tuning the RF or even the lenses will solve this... maybe mill out the film rails if you need to...
for activating the sensor, the shutter release rod runs all the way along to the bottom of the camera- just remove the plate with the film loading diagram on it and you'll see what I mean.
what about the take-up spool though? the shaft is still there on the M2, and M4s have that tulip stuff. remove it to make space? maybe you'll want a good camera tech on your side...
cheers and good luck!
for activating the sensor, the shutter release rod runs all the way along to the bottom of the camera- just remove the plate with the film loading diagram on it and you'll see what I mean.
what about the take-up spool though? the shaft is still there on the M2, and M4s have that tulip stuff. remove it to make space? maybe you'll want a good camera tech on your side...
cheers and good luck!
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
The only practical way would be to hang the electronics off the bottom of the camera like a winder. I don't think anyone would want to have to hack the inside of their M to use a back. And the only switch you've got to trigger the back on M's before the M6 is the sync socket.
More Sensor Development Kits.
http://www.couriertronics.com/docs/...FTF6144C-FT50M-FTF7040M_03-070-00198-05-1.pdf
Sensor used in the M8:
http://www.ccd.com/pdf/ccd_105.pdf
Note the Eval Board at the end of the Product Datasheet.
You will not be able to set the CCD array back 2mm, unless you use something like a fiber bundle at the film plane. The specs for a Leica standard lens is more like 0.02mm. There is no reason to have the CCD that far back. As it is on a removable back, the CCD is easy to clean. I've cleaned my Kodak DCS200ir CCD by just taking the back off and cleaning the sensor.
http://www.couriertronics.com/docs/...FTF6144C-FT50M-FTF7040M_03-070-00198-05-1.pdf
Sensor used in the M8:
http://www.ccd.com/pdf/ccd_105.pdf
Note the Eval Board at the end of the Product Datasheet.
You will not be able to set the CCD array back 2mm, unless you use something like a fiber bundle at the film plane. The specs for a Leica standard lens is more like 0.02mm. There is no reason to have the CCD that far back. As it is on a removable back, the CCD is easy to clean. I've cleaned my Kodak DCS200ir CCD by just taking the back off and cleaning the sensor.
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How about just using a Monochrome Sensor. Keep the firmware easy, and not have to worry about the Mosaic Filter.
V
varjag
Guest
There's an unwritten law of amateur engineering: a system announced and hyped before implementation is doomed to stay on paper.
There are ways to make a digital back for M, but from the sound of it, you didn't look much into practicalities yet.
Just start with a dead Canon DSLR.
There are ways to make a digital back for M, but from the sound of it, you didn't look much into practicalities yet.
Famous last words.
Just start with a dead Canon DSLR.
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A project like this could easily run $50K, even starting with the Eval kit, camera, and having a small electronics company/mechanical packaging engineer working with you.
My "dream" would be to gut a Nikon F36 motor drive and turning it into a Digital Nikon F. I told my boss that in ~1988 when he asked what would I do when my chosen profession made my favorite hobby -film photography- obsolete... We had just been given a briefing by Kodak under NDA about their new CCD's.
My "dream" would be to gut a Nikon F36 motor drive and turning it into a Digital Nikon F. I told my boss that in ~1988 when he asked what would I do when my chosen profession made my favorite hobby -film photography- obsolete... We had just been given a briefing by Kodak under NDA about their new CCD's.
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batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
Wishing you the best of luck but does it really have to be full frame and a Leica M for the first prototype? Maybe you should start a couple notches easier and cheaper?
I'm thinking it should be possible to graft a small sensor into a 110 cartridge. Pop that into a Pentax Auto 110 and put your electronics in the winder.
And I agree with many above: No need for an LCD.
I'm thinking it should be possible to graft a small sensor into a 110 cartridge. Pop that into a Pentax Auto 110 and put your electronics in the winder.
And I agree with many above: No need for an LCD.