Leica M Edition 60

[airfrogusmc]

Innovation? Besides making an early small 35mm camera and really putting a lot into making really good glass Leica M has really never been very innovative. They were late putting meters in their M cameras and sill don't have autofocus (thank God). To me a great camera is a light tight box to hold light sensitive material, a shutter to control the time that the light is allowed to strike the light sensitive material, a lens to focus the light and an aperture to control the amount of light allowed to strike that sensitive material. A great camera to me and many others is a camera that is just about that simple. A great lens and a camera that I totally control and gets out of my way so I can create. I don't want or need all the stuff (so called innovation) that the big two spend their time on and am glad I have choices other than that. If you want all of that there certainly are a bevy of choices out there.

 

[airfrogusmc]

I'd argue the other way. It may require less materials and less machining, but that's not the point. The cost is associated with NEW machining. Hence the MM price is/was higher than the M9 (both at respective release).
*Of course that's got nothing to do with the special edition cost*

For example, if it costs $100k to get the machining set up, then $20 per M240 replicate ($15 with no lcd - it takes less time). If we sell 100k M240's, then the body only cost $21 each. If we sell 1000 with no lcd then they cost $115 each. Of course you can take away the cost of the lcd ($10) and buttons ($20), but its still much more expensive.

Michael

So lets hope of it sells well to the collectors and maybe they will put this body into regular production and charge about what they charge for the ME now. Can't hurt to hope. And if it happens I would buy one to buy and use as a tool...

 

[Scrambler]

You really know how to set the bar low, Scrambler.

Semilog, I spent 1/2 my childhood in the Third World. There is a concept called Appropriate Technology. Building a hand pump that uses commonly available car parts (for example) rather than proprietary castings is innovative, but also entirely derivative and adds no new feature, other than user servicing. An oven from a 44 gallon drum? Shoes from old tyres? Wind turbine from a 44 gallon drum, bicycle chain and a car alternator? All innovation or not?

The M(60) is new =novel therefore producing it =innovation. It's also regression with removal of features. It's dumb, and brilliant. It will be the most talked about camera Leica produces. It reinforces their brand image in a way only the M Monochrom has so far. Leica = more with less. Whether that's what you see or not, that's what they are saying.

A Jeep Wrangler isn't for everyone, but it (the idea or image) is what sells all the other Jeeps.

The M(60) is the first serious digital camera without a screen. The first to have only the literal bare minimum controls. It says, "if you can't cook, stay out of this kitchen."

It's appropriate technology for photographers that know their craft.

 

[ramosa]

Leica = more with less.

Well, not with the M240 😉

 

[Villanova]

Semilog, I spent 1/2 my childhood in the Third World. There is a concept called Appropriate Technology. Building a hand pump that uses commonly available car parts (for example) rather than proprietary castings is innovative, but also entirely derivative and adds no new feature, other than user servicing. An oven from a 44 gallon drum? Shoes from old tyres? Wind turbine from a 44 gallon drum, bicycle chain and a car alternator? All innovation or not?

The M(60) is new =novel therefore producing it =innovation.

It's also regression with removal of features. It's dumb, and brilliant. It will be the most talked about camera Leica produces. It reinforces their brand image in a way only the M Monochrom has so far. Leica = more with less. Whether that's what you see or not, that's what they are saying. A Jeep Wrangler isn't for everyone, but it (the idea or image) is what sells all the other Jeeps.

The M(60) is the first serious digital camera without a screen. The first to have only the literal bare minimum controls. It says, "if you can't cook, stay out of this kitchen." It's appropriate technology for photographers that know their craft.

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[olakiril]

It's appropriate technology for photographers that know their craft.

Ok Leica might have been common among professional photographers few decades ago, but currently it targets hobbyists and collectors.
What serious professional photographer would spend $20k for a camera that does the same thing as a camera at half that price? How many of the 600 cameras do you think are going to be actually used professionally (or not for that matter) ?

Leica just innovated another way to get more money (although I could argue they would make much more if they had priced it like an ME) .

Its not supposed to be a tool but a jewel. That is why gloves are included.

 

[michaelwj]

Ok Leica might have been common among professional photographers few decades ago, but currently it targets hobbyists and collectors.
What serious professional photographer would spend $20k for a camera that does the same thing as a camera at half that price? How many of the 600 cameras do you think are going to be actually used professionally (or not for that matter) ?

Leica just innovated another way to get more money (although I could argue they would make much more if they had priced it like an ME) .

Its not supposed to be a tool but a jewel. That is why gloves are included.

First, this is a collectors edition. None of them will be used professionally.
A regular edition would most likely not be used by professional photographers either. But, "photographers that know their craft" and "professional photographer" are not the same thing. Are you suggesting that hobbyists and amateurs do not know their craft?

I doubt it will ever be priced where the M-E is, that's the price point where they use up old technology, a regular version of this camera would be priced above the 240 unfortunately.

Michael

 

[olakiril]

First, this is a collectors edition. None of them will be used professionally.
A regular edition would most likely not be used by professional photographers either. But, "photographers that know their craft" and "professional photographer" are not the same thing. Are you suggesting that hobbyists and amateurs do not know their craft?

No, it came out that way but I wasn't implying it. I meant to say that the target group for this specific edition is collectors.

I doubt it will ever be priced where the M-E is, that's the price point where they use up old technology, a regular version of this camera would be priced above the 240 unfortunately.

Yes most probably. If it ever comes.

But even then I will not buy one simply because I will be at Fuji's price range for quite a while.

 

[michaelwj]

No, it came out that way but I wasn't implying it. I meant to say that the target group for this specific edition is collectors.

Sorry, easy to misinterpret on the net.
Its definitely for collectors, lets hope they wear most of the tooling up cost, so the rest of us can have a go too!

But even then I will not buy one simply because I will be at Fuji's price range for quite a while.

Alas, so will I, but who knows what the future holds with a bit of saving!

Michael

 

[semilog]

Semilog, I spent 1/2 my childhood in the Third World. There is a concept called Appropriate Technology…

I'm well aware of what appropriate tech is.

The technology in this camera is essentially identical to the technology in an m240.

You know that, right?

And speaking of appropriate technology, a camera meant to actually be used has frikken' strap lugs on the body. And if you're in the field and there is dust on the sensor, appropriate technology will let you know before you get back to the hotel to look at the botched work on your laptop.

This is designed to mimic the worst characteristics of film cameras — not the best.

 

[Lss]

How many of the 600 cameras do you think are going to be actually used professionally (or not for that matter) ?

This is a special edition camera. It is a given it will be more a collector's item than anything else.

The interesting discussion is whether Leica will build a real differentiated production camera based on this (design) exercise. Such a camera if released will be used, by professionals and by other owners.

 

[Scrambler]

No, it came out that way but I wasn't implying it. I meant to say that the target group for this specific edition is collectors. Yes most probably. If it ever comes. But even then I will not buy one simply because I will be at Fuji's price range for quite a while.

Agreed on all counts.

The M(60) is an idea.

The delivered product will be collected. A select few will be used simply to show off (but with the added kudos of actually needing to know something about photography to use one.)

I think Leica will make a production version simply because it will then "own" hardcore full-manual digital photography. And I think the main cost will be firmware, which they now have.

Personally, I'm not even in Fuji territory. Not while I keep playing with film. :s

 

[Scrambler]

I'm well aware of what appropriate tech is. The technology in this camera is essentially identical to the technology in an m240. You know that, right? And speaking of appropriate technology, a camera meant to actually be used has frikken' strap lugs on the body. And if you're in the field and there is dust on the sensor, appropriate technology will let you know before you get back to the hotel to look at the botched work on your laptop. This is designed to mimic the worst characteristics of film cameras — not the best.

Peace, really!

Most of your quibbles have solutions. Use a 1/2 case with strap. Clean your sensor before your critical shoot. Do what 99% of buyers will: shrink wrap it and store it.

Yes, it's identical under the skin. Probably the only unique (so far) element is the firmware. And the body shell, but what are a few holes between friends?

I know the appropriate tech metaphor goes to far. My point is that in stripping the digital user interface to the bare bones, Leica have created a camera without direct peer. It is innovation, and derivative, and less functional.

But it's a powerful idea.

 

[telenous]

A step in the right direction but I'll wait for the next, more expensive iteration of the M60 with an inbuilt function disallowing cropping. Only this will liberate me from profane details, finally allowing my eye to align with mind and heart. 🙄😛



.

 

[jsrockit]

The M(60) is the first serious digital camera without a screen.

I would argue that it isn't so serious since it is more of a collector's camera than a users camera.

 

[Calzone]

I would argue that it isn't so serious since it is more of a collector's camera than a users camera.

John,

I think the M-60 or the M-A would be a great camera for Andre. The only thing bad for him is the price.

Understand that Andre has a photographic memory and can shoot slides getting perfect expose all the time. A shooter like Andre is kinda rare, but it seems the M-60 and M-A both suit Andre well.

Cal

 

[jsrockit]

John,

I think the M-60 or the M-A would be a great camera for Andre. The only thing bad for him is the price.

Understand that Andre has a photographic memory and can shoot slides getting perfect expose all the time. A shooter like Andre is kinda rare, but it seems the M-60 and M-A both suit Andre well.

Cal

True... but both suit you well too. I think the M-60 could be a nice camera if they make a layman's version. 🙂

 

[sanmich]

True...

not really
Andre had a GREAT printer, that could rescue catastrophic negs.

 

[Calzone]

True... but both suit you well too. I think the M-60 could be a nice camera if they make a layman's version. 🙂

True, but I'm not as deadly accurate as Andre and likely will never be.

A M-240 is a great camera, but I'm still trying to restrict myself to B&W only. Not sure if I need a color camera, and I think I'm going to promote pitch my next Leica camera.

The "Calzone MM-SS:" MM-SS is short for M-Monochrom: Square Shooter; or M-Monochrom; Super Sized. The idea is to make a 36X36 version of the Monochrom with some improvements like the bigger buffer of the M-240; the larger screen of the M-240; and a black paint version.

Much of the hardware to build the MM-SS could utilize parts that are already in production like say the top plate of a MM, 0.85 MP rangfinder assembly (with square framelines), M-240 bottom plate. Basically the size would be the same width and thickness of a current digital M, but it would be perhaps 3/4 of an inch taller and maybe the height of one of my film M's with a TA Rapidwinder. Don't forget the electronic framelines borrowed from the M-240.

A 28mm lens would be around a 50mm FOV for shooting the square. I can see me buying a 28 Lux to add to my 28 Cron. A 50mm would be like shooting a 90. Wide open the image circle on some lenses might have light fall off in the corners when shot wide open, but I'm thinking the image circle of modern Leica ASPH glass will likely cover the corners.

As far as sensor goes 36X36 has two possibilities: one is make a 16 mega pixel 36X36 sensor; and the other is make a 24 MP sensor. One offers a bigger pixel which has its performance advantages; the other with higher pxel count has its own merits. I for one would favor the 16 mega pixel for tonality and high ISO capabilities. I see the only real expensive cost here to develope is making a new 36x36 sensor. If a 16 MP sensor is developed then even the old firmware that is used in my MM can be mostly used.

Leica has the guts to create boutique cameras that fill specific nitches, but does Leica have the wisdom to create the first digital camera that shoots the square? My Monochrom remains my dream camera, and I can't see any big major improvements, but I think a MM-SS is the next best new idea.


I HOPE SOMEONE IN LEICA DEVELOPMENT SEES THIS POST.

Cal

 

[jsrockit]

not really
Andre had a GREAT printer, that could rescue catastrophic negs.

Huh...are we speaking of the same Andre? I'm not sure the Andre (a friend of ours) we are speaking about has shown you his negatives or even prints that often.