Leica M or Voigtlander Bessa R

[Ko.Fe.]

Sorry to rewind this old thread. Here is the reason:

Year and half ago I purchased R, in "like new" condition. $200 paid.
As of now camera appearance is "heavily used". I'm not a junkie.
Always store cameras in the case, never toss them in large camera bag with lenses and crap. My older FED-2 is in better condition still and my much more heavily used DSLR also not so bad. Bessa lost black paint on corners, like my 1937 Zeiss folder. Rubber back door cover is very sensitive for scratches.
Plastic frame around viewfinder has crack.
I broke the film plate, two pins holding it are made from very tiny plastic pins.
The problem is, nobody in Canada supports this camera. In USA they don't want to deal with non-gringo Canadians.
I super-glued this damn thing and it works.

So, I went to the store twice where they have M4 and M4-P in usable condition.
Nothing wrong with Ms comparing to newer R in appearance. Nice old cameras.
M4 is bloody heavy, 4-P is less heavy, but no self-timer.
M4 has more contrast RF patch comparing to 4-P, but nowhere near to be as good as it is on R.
Both M have same after sound as my IIf at 1/25 and they are clicking like mechanical clocks at 1sec. My R has no after sounds.
I didn't liked advance at both Ms. It is too long comparing to Bessa and it is uneven. At the end you have to push it more or here is something pushing.

$800 for serviceable, repairable M camera with no other advantages comparing to R, but larger RF base and better appearance in long term?

I'm not ready for it yet, I'll keep using R to see how soon it will become first camera to die in my hands.
As of now "like new" R is $300 or less and M2 in usable condition is $500 or more.

 

[cassel]

I actually prefer the Double Stroke M3 for advance. The viewfinder on a clean- like new M3 is nearly as good as a Bessa- with greater accuracy for a fast lens. I had two Bessa R's (for professional use) several years ago and sold them after a time- felt to cheap and plasticky. YMMV

 

[dbarnes]

Used Bessa R bodies in black aren't hard to find for about $200. They make a great intro to RF photography. As long as you don't beat them up, they should more or less hold their value. So I recommend jumping in at that $200 price point and starting to shoot. You can still keep saving for a Leica.

Just keep in mind that a screw-mount body like a Bessa R makes for relatively slow lens changes. If you're going to shoot more than one lens and change often, you may find the experience frustrating. I did, and bought a second $200 body.

 

[Scrambler]

@ Ko.Fe.

Sorry to hear your Bessa is failing. My experience was better but I doubt I used mine as much as you have yours.

Sadly nothing is as functional for the price. The next step up in cost is the CL then you step again to beaten M3s, CLEs and Hexar RFs and more modern Bessas.

There really are no bargain Leica-compatible cameras.

If you are happy to stick with LTM then what about the Canon RFs?

 

[Ko.Fe.]

I have Canon DSLR and SLR with L glass, but their RFs are not my cap of tea.
Nor others you have mentioned. I'm Bessa, FSU LTM guy.
It seems, if I sell R and IIf, with another film gear, I'll be able to try M2 or M4-2, at least.
Learning how to use external light meter for indoors now. Googled "incident light" yesterday 🙂

 

[froyd]

The Bessa R will only accept screw mount lenses. If you want to use M-mount lenses, you'll need to step up at least to the R2 (which is also a better built camera). In my experience the R2A/M, R3A/M, and R4A?M are the better Bessas. Their light meters are pretty nice, though keep in mind that only on the RxMs will you be able to disable the meter.

If, like me, you find that a buil-in meter slows you down, pick an RxM. whetehr it's 2,3 or 4 depends on your favorite focal lenghts. Cameraquest has all the info you could hope to read on Bessas.

Bessas will also be better than Leica M for daylight flash use. Most RF photographers are self-declared available darkness ninjas, but fill flash can be handy depanding on your type of photography.

However, i second the advice above to try a Leica M. The M2 is not a lot more than a new R2A and you will enjoy the benefit of one of the least cluttered camera interfaces. I have a slightly more expensive M4 and I would not go back to the R2A despite what seem like advantages on paper: meter, synch speed, swing-back, etc. But that's only because for my type of photography (mainly photos of my family and children) the set-it-and-forget-it approach of meterless cameras helps me work much faster.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Thanks for another opinion.

I'm far from "flashiness" and only advantage of Bessas to offer seems to be in more shutter speeds to sync. I'm using some archaic old film auto flash on R and same one at IIf. 1/50 is OK to bounce it and get contrasty negative.

To be honest, it doesn't really makes big difference between two and both are completely behind in terms of flashlight today technology comparing to my old Canon EOS SLR with three modern TTL flashes to use with it.

 

[nongfuspring]

I have Canon DSLR and SLR with L glass, but their RFs are not my cap of tea.
Nor others you have mentioned. I'm Bessa, FSU LTM guy.
It seems, if I sell R and IIf, with another film gear, I'll be able to try M2 or M4-2, at least.
Learning how to use external light meter for indoors now. Googled "incident light" yesterday 🙂

What in particular do you not like so much about the Canon RFs? Asking out of curiosity since I'm considering a canon P and haven't actually used one before. Every now and then I consider getting an M or Leica LTM, but then I tend to quickly get sidetracked by cheaper and often better featured Canon LTM options.

 

[Monochrom]

great question.

leicas are awesome in almost everyway my choice is the m2, the one i will never like is the m7, expensive and heavy.

R bessas are excellent shooters!

MAny consider them as being cheap, but i donñt agree, bessas have enough quality to make all the pictures you want, even the so called short base RF is more than enough to focus properly any lens including the fastest ones.

It´s AE and very intuitive to use

You can go wrong with a bessa.

 

[Roger Hicks]

great question.

leicas are awesome in almost everyway my choice is the m2, the one i will never like is the m7, expensive and heavy.

R bessas are excellent shooters!

MAny consider them as being cheap, but i donñt agree, bessas have enough quality to make all the pictures you want, even the so called short base RF is more than enough to focus properly any lens including the fastest ones.

It´s AE and very intuitive to use

You can go wrong with a bessa.

Not really. I've noticed the difference when shooting (for example) 90/2 and 50/1.5. I have both Bessas and Leicas and they're all perfectly good cameras, but I find the Leicas nicer to use and there's no doubt that if you want the "hard-used, I'm not a wimp, I don't take care of my cameras" look, the Bessas will allow you to acquire it much faster.

I've had a couple of Canon 7s, too, and they're nice old cameras but I find the M-mount much more convenient as well as offering a very much greater choice of lenses.

Cheers,

R.

 

[cosmonaut]

I am after purchasing my first Rangefinder, but not sure which way to go, a new Voigtlander Bessa R or save a little longer for a secondhand Leica M.

What would you all recommend?

Well with a Leica you can always sell it pretty much for what you have in it so there's not much to lose trying one. Be warned they are addictive.

 

[alienmeatsack]

I personally prefer my Bessa R4A over my M3. I like the way the Bessa feels in my hand and how it shoots over the M3. I'm considering purchasing a Bessa-R for my collection to use with some of my LTM lenses. Since I tend to put a lens on and not change it very often, screwing a lens on isn't a huge deal. Even on my M Mount gear, I keep the same lenses on 90% of the time.

I've been considering selling the M3 since I am just not using it much and I'd rather it be in the hands of someone who will. But I've found that the value of these seems to be in a wierd place right now. A year ago, they were all going for $800-1200 even for beaters that needed work. Now, it seems like a nice CLA'd M3 DS is only fetching $600-800. I've got more then that in mine and I got it for a steal and had it CLA'd.

As a result of this market change I've been hesitant to sell my M3 since I'd have to get $800-1000 for it to get what I have in it. And I'd rather keep it then sell it at a loss.

 

[traveler_101]

Used Bessa R bodies in black aren't hard to find for about $200. They make a great intro to RF photography. As long as you don't beat them up, they should more or less hold their value. So I recommend jumping in at that $200 price point and starting to shoot. You can still keep saving for a Leica.

Just keep in mind that a screw-mount body like a Bessa R makes for relatively slow lens changes. If you're going to shoot more than one lens and change often, you may find the experience frustrating. I did, and bought a second $200 body.

+1

I think this is solid advice. Start with something very affordable and work your way up. You will need a backup body anyway.

Nothing wrong with starting with Bessa R + CV "Color Skopar" 35/2.5 lens, for example. My first RF was the Bessa T with the Color Skopar. I paid around $220 for the camera. Still have it. Its chief disadvantage is the separate viewfinder/rangefinder, but its advantage over the Bessa R is that it takes M mount lenses. You could get a CV 35mm F1.4 Nokton instead of the Skopar! I should add that the Bessa T is solid; does not feel cheap and is clearly better built than the R; of course it is not a Leica--but then again look at the price difference.

The key, if you should go this route, is not to dump a lot of money into a Bessa. You will need the money later when you graduate to Leica.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

What in particular do you not like so much about the Canon RFs? Asking out of curiosity since I'm considering a canon P and haven't actually used one before. Every now and then I consider getting an M or Leica LTM, but then I tend to quickly get sidetracked by cheaper and often better featured Canon LTM options.

I have no emotional connection with it. Plus, Bessa R was going to be much modern and fresh replacement for my family FED-2, which is joy to use sometimes and feel connected with my parents and close friends who are far away.
But Bessa R doesn't hold well on exterior. At all.
And here is no service for it. I can't even get spare parts for it.

And every time I get noticed with R, same question almost always here - is it Leica?
And then people see "Germany" on it, but it isn't...
Time to try M for me, I guess.

 

[Scrambler]

The first time I used a Leica (IIIc) someone said to me "A Leica?! They take great photographs!"

The camera in question had a Jupiter-8 lens on it, the shutter was capping and had holes. I am fairly sure whatever quality the photos had was due to my effort not the camera!

People know what a Leica is. It's one of those quirky non-SLR cameras that take great photos. I wouldn't take it to heart.

I think what you want is a newer Bessa with more metal in its skin, and a tin of black paint. They can still be serviced in Japan.

 

[Clark.EE]

I paid £600 for a Bessa R + 15mm Heliar +50mm 1.5 Nokton + 90mm lanthar.
I don't use it often, but it works well for me.

Do you want a built in meter?

That is the issue for me.