Leica M2 problems

[miikkakos]

Hello all.

Being long time lurker here at rff, this will be my first post to this forum.

I have acquired a pretty beaten M2 from evilbay. It has been working pretty flawlessly for the first two months I have had it. I still mainly shoot digital (M43), so I haven't gone through that many rolls with the M2 (as it is pretty pricey to shoot film). Now as we have had our first real cold weathers here in Finland, I have had some problems with my first cold weather roll. So this is my seventh roll with M2 and it is TRI-X pushed to 1600. Self developed. This is my second time trying to push TRI-X to 1600.

So, to my problem. The negative has many frames as not exposed almost not at all. And some are half exposed as in my attachment. Some pictures are as they should.
Have you people seen anything similar happening with M2? These shots were taken in about -25c temperatures. Any ideas of what has happened? If I remember correctly, these were taken using high shutter speeds (1/500 or 1/1000), which I don't usually got to use.

Sorry for the worst phone images of negatives, and even crappier partial landscape.

 

[Timmyjoe]

No expert, but it looks to me like a shutter issue. Might be a good idea to have the camera serviced (a CLA).

 

[nobbylon]

If they were all done at 500 or 1000 check the shutter. look through the open back without a lens and fire off the shutter at a bright light source. you should see this light across the whole frame. M's tend to have the first curtain go slower, old lube, weakening spring in roller and the first curtain catches it up leaving no slit width for exposure.

 

[Tom A]

The shutter is "banding" -i.e not moving smoothly across the film gate. It can be due to the cold or also due to stiff lubrictaion (or old lube). When you are shooting at -20 and below the film also gets less flexible and that in itself can cause problem. It is not a big deal - any competent camera service can re-lube and adjust the speeds for you.
The 1/500 and 1/1000 speeds are also prone to capping - the two curtains run across without opening properly. Often caused simply by these speeds not having been used for a long time.

 

[_goodtimez]

If you have a digital camera with B mode (long exposures), it will be very easy to perform the following procedure to test your shutter dynamics:

1) Set your digital cam on the back of your M2 (no lens on the M2) so that it can see through the chamber, pointing forward.
2) Make sure not much of high light can enter the space between the 2 cameras.
3) Set the M2 on B mode and lock it with a release cable.
4) take a picture with the digital cam in manual mode through the chamber of the M2 and note the parameters: Aperture and speed
5) the correct exposure obtained with the digital cam gives you the shutter speed you want to set later on the M2.
6) Now prepare to trigger your digital cam on B mode
7) Set your M2 to the previously speed set-up selected for a correct exposure with the digital cam.
8) trigger and maintain your digital cam on B mode and trigger your M2 at the selected speed. Verify that the obtained result is the same as in step 4.
9) repeat the procedure for various speeds at which you want to test your M2.

This sounds a bit complex however when you will do it's very easy. You will be actually using the M2 shutter as the shutter of the digital cam set on B mode.

 

[FujiLove]

If you have a digital camera with B mode (long exposures), it will be very easy to perform the following procedure to test your shutter dynamics:

1) Set your digital cam on the back of your M2 (no lens on the M2) so that it can see through the chamber, pointing forward.
2) Make sure not much of high light can enter the space between the 2 cameras.
3) Set the M2 on B mode and lock it with a release cable.
4) take a picture with the digital cam in manual mode through the chamber of the M2 and note the parameters: Aperture and speed
5) the correct exposure obtained with the digital cam gives you the shutter speed you want to set later on the M2.
6) Now prepare to trigger your digital cam on B mode
7) Set your M2 to the previously speed set-up selected for a correct exposure with the digital cam.
8) trigger and maintain your digital cam on B mode and trigger your M2 at the selected speed. Verify that the obtained result is the same as in step 4.
9) repeat the procedure for various speeds at which you want to test your M2.

This sounds a bit complex however when you will do it's very easy. You will be actually using the M2 shutter as the shutter of the digital cam set on B mode.

Damn, that's a good idea!

 

[miikkakos]

Thank you all for your replys.

I will definitely test the camera as suggested and hope that it is only a problem of old lube and cold weather.

The digital camera trick seems pretty clever and it would be nice to know if timings are right with the camera.

EDIT:
I did the testing and it seems that some light is getting through 1/1000 when viewed by eyes. With digital camera trick I did get good results with 1/250 and 1/500 but only black with 1/1000. All done at room temperatures ~20c.

 

[_goodtimez]

Damn, that's a good idea!

Hey thanks !
I had to invent this one day to test a Leica M2 that I fixed but it can of course apply to many cameras.
To test the slow speeds you may also use an old CRT TV and compare with a known working camera.

 

[_goodtimez]

Thank you all for your replys.

I will definitely test the camera as suggested and hope that it is only a problem of old lube and cold weather.

The digital camera trick seems pretty clever and it would be nice to know if timings are right with the camera.

EDIT:
I did the testing and it seems that some light is getting through 1/1000 when viewed by eyes. With digital camera trick I did get good results with 1/250 and 1/500 but only black with 1/1000. All done at room temperatures ~20c.

As Tom said it sounds like capping. You may find the M2 repair documentation on-line and adjust the slit, which is the gap between the first and second curtains at high speed.

 

[nobbylon]

Tip, don't adjust the slit width. Address the real issue first which is nearly always old lube. I've seen this many times and once lubed properly the camera functions normally again. This is of course dependant on if somebody has messed with the slit width which is factory set. If it is just the 1000 setting which is the usual case that I've seen in 20+ M2's then a slight increase in first curtain tension can overcome the lube issue.
This is obviously the cheap and quick way as the issue is not been sorted from cause ie lube. Once the shutter is running correctly at all speeds the brake can be adjusted.
I use the crt method for tension adjustment above 125th sec speeds. Small tension adjustments only as the curtain speeds need to be good to give even exposure across the frame.

 

[_goodtimez]

I agree with you Nobbylon, the slit shall only be adjusted once the camera has the right lubrication. Identify the curtains shafts and start with a very tiny drop of thin oil through the bottom plate whenever possible.
I'm very carefull about adjusting the tension with old curtains: the less the better.

 

[miikkakos]

Tip, don't adjust the slit width. Address the real issue first which is nearly always old lube. I've seen this many times and once lubed properly the camera functions normally again. This is of course dependant on if somebody has messed with the slit width which is factory set. If it is just the 1000 setting which is the usual case that I've seen in 20+ M2's then a slight increase in first curtain tension can overcome the lube issue.
This is obviously the cheap and quick way as the issue is not been sorted from cause ie lube. Once the shutter is running correctly at all speeds the brake can be adjusted.
I use the crt method for tension adjustment above 125th sec speeds. Small tension adjustments only as the curtain speeds need to be good to give even exposure across the frame.

Thank you for your input. Glad to know that it isn't that uncommon of a issue.

I agree with you Nobbylon, the slit shall only be adjusted once the camera has the right lubrication. Identify the curtains shafts and start with a very tiny drop of thin oil through the bottom plate whenever possible.
I'm very carefull about adjusting the tension with old curtains: the less the better.

Is the lubing something you are supposed to do from time to time, after it has been CLA'd, or are you referring this as a fix (instead of full blown CLA). If you are, I would be very curious to know how one does this, as my M2 is really not that of in "keeper" condition, and I would just like to have it working cheaply or not use 1/1000 at all. If I really bond with it, then the CLA would be in order later down the road. And thank you for your input on my problem, your help is greatly appreciated.

 

[_goodtimez]

Try a couple very tiny drops of lub and if it needs a CLA you can still do it after that.
I don't think about any regular lub job as it greatly depends on the environment at which the camera was used and stored

 

[Chromacomaphoto]

Just a CLA from a competent place and you will be good to go. I have an M2 and I LOVE it, just such a wonderful build quality.

Did the camera come from somebody on Ebay in the same country as you or maybe did it come from a slightly warmer climate first? To be fair to the seller, sounds like the fault might not have even shown up under less extreme temperatures.

It's worth sticking with the camera, a perfectly functioning M2 is a wonderful thing indeed.