chaospress
Established
This is a follow up to a thread I posted last week about lock up on my new M240.
I updated to the latest firmware, and haven't had any lock-ups (as in camera shut down) since.
However, I am now occasionally getting very inaccurate exposures when using Live View with exposure mode set on Advanced / Multi-field. Exposure dial is always set on aperture priority, typically with exposure compensation -.3. I have had exposures where the Live view exposure simulation shows one thing visually on the LCD screen, and the actual exposure comes out a full stop or two lighter. Also two frames of the same subject (with subject framing very slightly different) where the info shows an exposure on one frame, and the next frame a stop faster exposure but both exposures look identical. I've also had black frames a couple of different times (underexposure of 4 stops or more), where subsequent exposures with the same setting are perfect.
So, I've read comments that some people just stick to using 'Classic' exposure mode, or don't use Live View at all. All the mis-exposures I've had have been while using Live View, and most or all have been with setting on multi field mode.
Just wondering if other people have had similar experiences- I get the idea that people put up with these imperfections because like me, they otherwise very much like using the camera and the files it produces.
I have a choice of returning the camera this week, or keeping it and either living with it as is, or letting Leica check it out. I think I would put up with these occasional issues, but my concern is if there's something not right with this particular M240. I do have a 2 year warranty, and today the guy from Leica New Jersey was telling me that if any repairs are needed, the results will be as good as if the camera had always been bug free...
I updated to the latest firmware, and haven't had any lock-ups (as in camera shut down) since.
However, I am now occasionally getting very inaccurate exposures when using Live View with exposure mode set on Advanced / Multi-field. Exposure dial is always set on aperture priority, typically with exposure compensation -.3. I have had exposures where the Live view exposure simulation shows one thing visually on the LCD screen, and the actual exposure comes out a full stop or two lighter. Also two frames of the same subject (with subject framing very slightly different) where the info shows an exposure on one frame, and the next frame a stop faster exposure but both exposures look identical. I've also had black frames a couple of different times (underexposure of 4 stops or more), where subsequent exposures with the same setting are perfect.
So, I've read comments that some people just stick to using 'Classic' exposure mode, or don't use Live View at all. All the mis-exposures I've had have been while using Live View, and most or all have been with setting on multi field mode.
Just wondering if other people have had similar experiences- I get the idea that people put up with these imperfections because like me, they otherwise very much like using the camera and the files it produces.
I have a choice of returning the camera this week, or keeping it and either living with it as is, or letting Leica check it out. I think I would put up with these occasional issues, but my concern is if there's something not right with this particular M240. I do have a 2 year warranty, and today the guy from Leica New Jersey was telling me that if any repairs are needed, the results will be as good as if the camera had always been bug free...
Chiaroscuro
Member
I only use Classic mode (matches my other cameras) and manual exposure, I have had no exposure issues like that.
john
john
Kwesi
Well-known
Unfortunately i dont use multi-field view on my M240 so i can't give you a comparison.
My suggestion would be that if this is how you primarily use the camera then i would return it and try another one.
My suggestion would be that if this is how you primarily use the camera then i would return it and try another one.
mfunnell
Shaken, so blurred
I'm in pretty much the same circumstance. I hope things work out, but I suspect we're a bit too old-fashioned around here...
...Mike
P.S. It's odd how we're all talking about an M7-style auto-exposure mode as 'classic' when the actual M7 was so fraught that I'm sure some traditionalists needed smelling-salts and a snifter of brandy to recover from the shock
rscheffler
Well-known
I have noticed occasionally when culling images that EXIF for the guesstimated aperture can fluctuate dramatically during image sequences, though the actual images throughout the sequence are consistently exposed. It will be correct for one image, f/16 for the next, correct for the next one, way off for the one after, etc. But it has been some time since I've paid attention to this, and I don't remember if it was with live view on or off. There is a small round window on the front of the camera, to the left of the Leica logo, that takes ambient light readings to guesstimate the aperture and apply it in EXIF. But I don't know if it is also used in live view mode or how it could be thrown off so dramatically from frame to frame.
I have also had random black frames. But not for nearly a year. It happened maybe 5-10 times at most, and I don't remember if it was in live view or not. It made me suspicious about whether the shutter was functioning properly. What I've had happen from time to time, and again just over the weekend for the first time in a long time, is when shooting a sequence, the shutter fires at a much higher frame rate than normal. It doesn't actually capture images though, and requires a reset by pulling the battery.
So far I've lived with these 'quirks.' But it's probably in part because they appeared gradually over months of using the camera. Not within the first week or two. If that was the case, I may have exchanged it, in the hopes of it being problems specific to the camera. But now, I'm 'stuck' with it. Not that I'm unhappy with it in general, just that it's sometimes frustrating. During the wedding this past weekend it locked up at least twice, and had the high fps problem I mentioned above. But I also shot a couple thousand frames on it, so it's still about on average of a lock-up every thousand frames, give or take. If Leica's service turnaround times were reasonable, like a week or two, I'd be inclined to send in the camera and let them try to fix it... but with how I've integrated it in my overall system, I can't be without it for up to two months, which is ridiculous.
If you can exchange it, it might be worth considering. If the second camera behaves similarly, then maybe that's just how they are... though the comment you got from the Leica rep would imply it shouldn't be.
chaospress
Established
rscheffler,
I mentioned the several week turnaround time to the Leica rep and he told me no, it would be 7-10 days, even for a repair, because they prioritize the M240 over repairing other M's in the line. That's what he said anyway.
If there was a problem Leica knows about but it isn't occurring often enough, I think it might be that they probably wouldn't admit it or at least wouldn't offer the information.
I mentioned the several week turnaround time to the Leica rep and he told me no, it would be 7-10 days, even for a repair, because they prioritize the M240 over repairing other M's in the line. That's what he said anyway.
If there was a problem Leica knows about but it isn't occurring often enough, I think it might be that they probably wouldn't admit it or at least wouldn't offer the information.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
With the M-P, I use the EVF/LCD quite often and the advanced/multifield exposure option a bit less often, the latter mostly because I haven't seen a need for it. Test exposures using an evenly lit tri-tone target are always on target; funky lighting situations cause the meter to mis-read the scene just as they have with other cameras (and using the exposure compensation the way I always do solves it) so, as far as I can tell, the camera is working normally, just as expected.
Two questions:
- Do you have a lens code set for the lens you're using? I always set a lens code manually for my uncoded lenses and use Automatic when using a coded lens. There are subtleties about the exposure metering that include some dependencies on the lens code and frame line selection systems.
- Do you look at the scene in the EVF or LCD with the shutter release half-pressed? At that position, the system should be reflecting the actual exposure value on the LCD with your EV compensation setting taken into account, otherwise the LCD/EVF is maintained at normalized brightness for focusing and framing.
I have found that the ambient light sensors (one on the front and one on the rear) adjust the LCD brightness depending on how bright the circumstances you're trying to view in might be. That could be throwing off your assessment of the scene brightness on the LCD as well. It's best not to use the LCD as an exposure metering assessment system as a result. The EVF works better since it is always shaded. But, normally, if I'm looking for critical exposure and not in a rush, I make a test exposure and then check the histogram on review to make sure I'm getting the results I am looking for.
Mostly I use the classic metering system, however, and I've had so few issues with getting exposure right on the mark I haven't really bothered to explore and test the advanced metering options too much. It seems to work just fine, but I can easily imagine that there is a learning curve with some behaviors that you have to learn and accommodate.
Just like with any camera, really, if you are wanting to be exacting and critical ... I've had some entertaining adventures learning how to get the exposure I want out of the Sony A7, Nikon F6, and Olympus E-M1 too, never mind all the others. Each camera presents its own learning challenges.
G
Two questions:
- Do you have a lens code set for the lens you're using? I always set a lens code manually for my uncoded lenses and use Automatic when using a coded lens. There are subtleties about the exposure metering that include some dependencies on the lens code and frame line selection systems.
- Do you look at the scene in the EVF or LCD with the shutter release half-pressed? At that position, the system should be reflecting the actual exposure value on the LCD with your EV compensation setting taken into account, otherwise the LCD/EVF is maintained at normalized brightness for focusing and framing.
I have found that the ambient light sensors (one on the front and one on the rear) adjust the LCD brightness depending on how bright the circumstances you're trying to view in might be. That could be throwing off your assessment of the scene brightness on the LCD as well. It's best not to use the LCD as an exposure metering assessment system as a result. The EVF works better since it is always shaded. But, normally, if I'm looking for critical exposure and not in a rush, I make a test exposure and then check the histogram on review to make sure I'm getting the results I am looking for.
Mostly I use the classic metering system, however, and I've had so few issues with getting exposure right on the mark I haven't really bothered to explore and test the advanced metering options too much. It seems to work just fine, but I can easily imagine that there is a learning curve with some behaviors that you have to learn and accommodate.
Just like with any camera, really, if you are wanting to be exacting and critical ... I've had some entertaining adventures learning how to get the exposure I want out of the Sony A7, Nikon F6, and Olympus E-M1 too, never mind all the others. Each camera presents its own learning challenges.
G
rscheffler
Well-known
OK, good to know. My impression from various forum posts has been it takes a fairly long time and don't recall the M240 being mentioned as a faster turnaround. Maybe things have recently changed? My own experience with lens related repairs has been 1-2 months. I haven't yet sent in an M body for serious work, though have stopped by their office a couple times after arranging same day service for the M240 (once for stubborn sensor dust, the other time for RF calibration). During those visits I was never told about faster M turnaround, and both times I specifically had conversations with the CSR about the too slow general turnaround time.
I don't know if there is a problem they are aware of and are keeping under wraps. It's possible. Anecdotal info I have from a user of multiple M-P cameras is that those behave better than the M240s he previously had. Granted, the M-P had some internal changes, including the bigger buffer. The cynical side of me thinks all of Leica's mid-cycle premium models also allow them to fix earlier bugs...
Anyway, 7-10 days is definitely better and will tempt me to give it a shot, when I have a sufficient gap in my schedule.
I don't know if there is a problem they are aware of and are keeping under wraps. It's possible. Anecdotal info I have from a user of multiple M-P cameras is that those behave better than the M240s he previously had. Granted, the M-P had some internal changes, including the bigger buffer. The cynical side of me thinks all of Leica's mid-cycle premium models also allow them to fix earlier bugs...
Anyway, 7-10 days is definitely better and will tempt me to give it a shot, when I have a sufficient gap in my schedule.
chaospress
Established
Checked tonight and the camera has exposure issues at times in Live View set on Classic mode as well. Too glitchy for me, think I'll return this one instead of sending it off to Leica.
chaospress
Established
Btw thanks for your post Godfrey. I've set the lens ID manually since it's not coded. The exposures are definitely off, it's not a matter of viewing them incorrectly on the LCD screen. The way off exposures only happen maybe 1% of the time, and apparently only on Live View, but that's not going to be good enough, especially when I don't know if it could get worse.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
Regardless of whether the camera is behaving normally or not, it sounds like you're not happy with it. There's no reason whatever to settle with something as expensive as a Leica M typ 240 if you're not happy with it and have the option to let it go ...
G
G