Pherdinand
the snow must go on
Your argument is totally flawed by contradicting itself. Read it again if you can't recognize this.
If it still doesnt help, here it is in brief:
"All they wanted was an FM2 or F2 but with a digital sensor."
Not a special stainless steel etc edition that needs new tooling etc etc.
Kwesi
Well-known
If it's being collected to be displayed like a painting or a vase. It doesn't matter wether it's a film or digital camera.
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Kwesi
Well-known
My most emotional and irrational purchase ever, it will arrive on Wednesday says UPS, a M60 from Leica Vienna. USD 14,140.00 excl VAT
The M240, Summicron 28, Summilux 35 asph (pre FLE) will be sold to partly finance the purchase.
Congratulations!
I played with one briefly at the Leica store Soho. After you've used it for a while perhaps you could give us a mini review/M240 comparison.
Kwesi
Godfrey
somewhat colored
My most emotional and irrational purchase ever, it will arrive on Wednesday says UPS, a M60 from Leica Vienna. USD 14,140.00 excl VAT
The M240, Summicron 28, Summilux 35 asph (pre FLE) will be sold to partly finance the purchase.
Ach. I hope you love it.
I'd briefly considered ordering one when they were announced. But as I said at the time, in the end, I didn't need the lens and given how much it cost I was more likely to choose an M-P for its versatility. But I'd love the Edition 60 ... sigh.
The M Edition 60 comes with its own special leather half case, part of the package. The half case is what the neckstrap attaches to.
G
noimmunity
scratch my niche
A good thing, because hands would need some kind of purchase for a grip.
The photos I could find didn't look very promising, though, from a style perspective. I've seen a lot of handmade cases around these days, from places like Italy and Korea, that would smarten it up.
My guess is that the MM240 will be exactly in the form of the M60. (So much for monochrom video, but the B&W stills crowd to whom that product must speak wouldn't have it). Thus the investment in new tooling mentioned by the OP will be amortized over many, many more bodies.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
I agree that a limited run of handmade stainless steel can of Beluga caviar etched with blue diamonds is worth a slight markup compared to the more industrial run.
The rationale may fall on starved ears, however.
The rationale may fall on starved ears, however.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
If I were to create video it wouldn't be with a rangefinder. They make tools much more capable. And the one size fits all crowd are far better served in with other cameras than Leica M in my opinion. And thats a good thing.
Congrats on your purchase. If Leica made this body in regular production at a price point where the M-E is I would buy two....
Congrats on your purchase. If Leica made this body in regular production at a price point where the M-E is I would buy two....
Huss
Veteran
You miss the point completely.
My argument is based entirely on the business plan of cost of production vs price point to the consumer.
It is remarkable that Leica is doing this for such a small premium.
Huss
Veteran
My most emotional and irrational purchase ever, it will arrive on Wednesday says UPS, a M60 from Leica Vienna. USD 14,140.00 excl VAT
The M240, Summicron 28, Summilux 35 asph (pre FLE) will be sold to partly finance the purchase.
Congratulations!!
Godfrey
somewhat colored
Many people disagree with that, but I buy half cases for my Leicas precisely for the improved grip.
The ME60 without felt fine, though, just as nice as the standard M. And the half case is just fine. I don't buy half cases for style enhancement, I buy them for their utility. I wish Leica's standard one for the M-P were as nice as the one for the ME60 as it would have saved me $200+, but I disliked where they put the gripping nubbin. I have to wait for the one I ordered; I hope it isn't two months like the last.
G
Kwesi
Well-known
In a funny way functionally,the M Edition 60 is the digital equivalent of the Leica MA. a standard edition should be priced about the same as the M type 240 same as M7,MP, MA are pretty equally priced.
i think it would do at least as well as the MA
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
No, you missed the point, your own point n fact
you started off by saying you dont get it why people dont think its a great deal- people who "only wanted an F..." Yadda yadda.Doesnt matter.
Glad you love it.
noimmunity
scratch my niche
Yeah, but your argument assumes that the cost of production is only amortized over this one special limited edition run. If that is not the case, as I expect, your calculations will prove to be wrong.
But of course I could be wrong, too. The point isn't who is right, the point is that we don't have access at this time to Leica's marketing strategy. Hence, the justification of price increase is purely speculative at this moment.
Speculation. That is exactly what the price increase of the limited editions is all about.
I got a PM discounting my bio since I have no commercially produced books, no one man show or critical reviews. In short, I didn't follow the established rules of working your way up the art ladder so my bio 'doesn't count." Apparently 46 years of shooting and having ones work collected by 90+ museums and special collections around the world doesn't say much. I'm not applying for a job, so whether my bio 'counts' or not by others means nothing to me. But, bio or not, let me spell out why the M60 is for camera fondlers in terms you can hopefully understand.
The camera comes with white glove? Doesn't that say it all? Do I need to go on?
I must, I guess I have to breast feed it to you...and even then the fondlers wont be convinced. Why? Because a camera fondler looks at cameras with lust, whereas the cameras shooter looks at cameras as tools. The fondler can't shoot great photos, they can only talk great photos and dream about producing great photos that are only out of reach due to not having the next greatest dream purchase in hand. Sadly, even when they get their lust object the iconic photos never seem to materialize for them.
Here is one of the reasons the fondler can't produce...
http://www.*****************/index.php/topic/25463-which-soft-release-button/?p=269961
The fondler spends too much time thinking about buying and too much time fondling and not enough ime pressing the button. This guy spends more time changing buttons and making holders for them than pressing the button. now, I have a dozen buttons myself. but they are all little, itsy bitty, black ones Loctited in the cams. This brings up another problem with the M60...price. The pro or heavy producer working on an important project does not use 1 cam for a job, they need a handful. It is no loss for the snapshot shooter to have an equipment malfunction. But for the iconic photo shooter much is invested and they can't afford to lose shots over equipment. In the old days, many a Life photog had 9 Leica's. 3 for carrying, 3 at the hotel for back up and 3 in the shop getting CLA'd.
I read on the Leica forum how the fondlers were lusting after the idea of no screen to distract them. that is worth $18,000 alone for some of them. Bottom line is this...if you can't produce with a screen...you wont produce without a screen. Again you see how the mind of the fondler works. They look for excuses outside of themselves as to why they can't produce. After the photog has basic skills one must accept the problem is within the photog and is not equipment related. They can test this theory out by putting gaffers tape on the screen. If they suddenly start producing great work with no screen then OK, spend $18,000 a pop.
For me having no screen would be a major hardship. I shoot in very tough lighting conditions. I wouldn't want the M60 for $3000. I put my image first and the M60 is far from the best tool for producing images for me. Here are a few reason why I would hate this cam...
I could never shoot a shot like this.
http://rangefindercamera.tumblr.com/image/108404692249
Without a screen, just would not work. You could not frame it tight and the exposure would not be right.
Here are more examples of pix that would have failed with no screen
(nsfw)
http://orderwomenlikepizza.tumblr.com/
Shooting into the sun with an adapted fisheye with no time for study or thinking? Nope won't happen unless it by luck. Frank Doorhof reminds us..."Sometimes you can force luck." The screen is one of those tools for forcing luck.
http://rangefindercamera.tumblr.com/image/108383739969
Tough lighting needs testing. Tough lighting is different every direction you turn. When your a doc photog and need to shoot in a fraction of a second there is not time to contemplate on exposure. Why let a fondling addiction ruin bringing home the iconic pix? I wont do it.
(nsfw)
http://rangefindercamera.tumblr.com/image/108383649339
To shoot the work I do I need pretty exacting exposure. Just not going to happen without a screen. I can't afford losing details.
http://rangefindercamera.tumblr.com/image/90250190154
http://danielteolijrlep6.tumblr.com/image/85154193735
Wont happen without a screen.
(nsfw)
http://rangefindercamera.tumblr.com/image/108383705449
Shooting into the sun and having a useable picture. Having exact framing...all due to the screen. In the old days we had to pay big bucks to shoot a polaroid back. now we get it for free. Make use of the screen.
http://familyicp.tumblr.com/image/94387244908
http://familyicp.tumblr.com/image/94387467963
http://familyicp.tumblr.com/image/94386647073
http://familyicp.tumblr.com/image/94004579183
http://familyicp.tumblr.com/image/93351476533
I shoot in very tough conditions sometimes. My cams routinely get destroyed. A $18,000 cam is not disposable.
Now, you fondlers want to lust after your cams fine. No one will stop you. I love to shoot Leica's myself and had 5, now 4 of them. But do like I did and be upfront with your qualification for your opinions. Come clean and say your a camera collector aka camera fonder and not a serious shooter. You do more harm than good for the beginning photog that may follow your lead thinking their problem lies in having a screen and they need to pay $18,000 for a camera with no screen in order to produce.
The camera comes with white glove? Doesn't that say it all? Do I need to go on?
I must, I guess I have to breast feed it to you...and even then the fondlers wont be convinced. Why? Because a camera fondler looks at cameras with lust, whereas the cameras shooter looks at cameras as tools. The fondler can't shoot great photos, they can only talk great photos and dream about producing great photos that are only out of reach due to not having the next greatest dream purchase in hand. Sadly, even when they get their lust object the iconic photos never seem to materialize for them.
Here is one of the reasons the fondler can't produce...
http://www.*****************/index.php/topic/25463-which-soft-release-button/?p=269961
The fondler spends too much time thinking about buying and too much time fondling and not enough ime pressing the button. This guy spends more time changing buttons and making holders for them than pressing the button. now, I have a dozen buttons myself. but they are all little, itsy bitty, black ones Loctited in the cams. This brings up another problem with the M60...price. The pro or heavy producer working on an important project does not use 1 cam for a job, they need a handful. It is no loss for the snapshot shooter to have an equipment malfunction. But for the iconic photo shooter much is invested and they can't afford to lose shots over equipment. In the old days, many a Life photog had 9 Leica's. 3 for carrying, 3 at the hotel for back up and 3 in the shop getting CLA'd.
I read on the Leica forum how the fondlers were lusting after the idea of no screen to distract them. that is worth $18,000 alone for some of them. Bottom line is this...if you can't produce with a screen...you wont produce without a screen. Again you see how the mind of the fondler works. They look for excuses outside of themselves as to why they can't produce. After the photog has basic skills one must accept the problem is within the photog and is not equipment related. They can test this theory out by putting gaffers tape on the screen. If they suddenly start producing great work with no screen then OK, spend $18,000 a pop.
For me having no screen would be a major hardship. I shoot in very tough lighting conditions. I wouldn't want the M60 for $3000. I put my image first and the M60 is far from the best tool for producing images for me. Here are a few reason why I would hate this cam...
I could never shoot a shot like this.
http://rangefindercamera.tumblr.com/image/108404692249
Without a screen, just would not work. You could not frame it tight and the exposure would not be right.
Here are more examples of pix that would have failed with no screen
(nsfw)
http://orderwomenlikepizza.tumblr.com/
Shooting into the sun with an adapted fisheye with no time for study or thinking? Nope won't happen unless it by luck. Frank Doorhof reminds us..."Sometimes you can force luck." The screen is one of those tools for forcing luck.
http://rangefindercamera.tumblr.com/image/108383739969
Tough lighting needs testing. Tough lighting is different every direction you turn. When your a doc photog and need to shoot in a fraction of a second there is not time to contemplate on exposure. Why let a fondling addiction ruin bringing home the iconic pix? I wont do it.
(nsfw)
http://rangefindercamera.tumblr.com/image/108383649339
To shoot the work I do I need pretty exacting exposure. Just not going to happen without a screen. I can't afford losing details.
http://rangefindercamera.tumblr.com/image/90250190154
http://danielteolijrlep6.tumblr.com/image/85154193735
Wont happen without a screen.
(nsfw)
http://rangefindercamera.tumblr.com/image/108383705449
Shooting into the sun and having a useable picture. Having exact framing...all due to the screen. In the old days we had to pay big bucks to shoot a polaroid back. now we get it for free. Make use of the screen.
http://familyicp.tumblr.com/image/94387244908
http://familyicp.tumblr.com/image/94387467963
http://familyicp.tumblr.com/image/94386647073
http://familyicp.tumblr.com/image/94004579183
http://familyicp.tumblr.com/image/93351476533
I shoot in very tough conditions sometimes. My cams routinely get destroyed. A $18,000 cam is not disposable.
Now, you fondlers want to lust after your cams fine. No one will stop you. I love to shoot Leica's myself and had 5, now 4 of them. But do like I did and be upfront with your qualification for your opinions. Come clean and say your a camera collector aka camera fonder and not a serious shooter. You do more harm than good for the beginning photog that may follow your lead thinking their problem lies in having a screen and they need to pay $18,000 for a camera with no screen in order to produce.
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raid
Dad Photographer
Why are we having such a discussion? Some people have such money and others don't. This is happening around you and me each day in our life. I see beautiful high end model cars on the street, and I sometimes think to myself, who needs so much horse power engines when the speed limit is 70 on the highway and is 35 on local streets, and then I remind myself of the fact that the owners "can" and they "do" and they enjoy it.
Same applies here. Else, what type of economics makes it reasonable to spend such sum of money on a camera? This is a luxury "toy" to make some photos after all.
Same applies here. Else, what type of economics makes it reasonable to spend such sum of money on a camera? This is a luxury "toy" to make some photos after all.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I take it that, in your 46+ years of photography, you never used a film camera to make a successful photograph in 'very tough lighting conditions' ...
An M Edition 60—regardless of price, whether it comes with a white glove, or its "special edition" moxie—is a limited tool just like any Leica is a limited tool. It's amazing how much excellent photography has been done with tools that were far far more limited... a testimony to the 'fondlers' that used them.
There are times when the constraints of shooting with a Leica are what cause creativity to blossom. There are other times when the features and capabilities of other cameras are needed to make the photograph. Yes, a serious shooter usually has several cameras—the shooter don't necessarily always have to have several of the SAME camera for this specific reason. I bet you don't either.
G
Eric Boe
Member
Only missing strap lugs (plus that's a great price)
Only missing strap lugs (plus that's a great price)
So I really like the concept of no screen, no options, just focus on taking pictures. There are millions of film Leicas that offer that experience, and a digital version would be entertaining. The one deal killer for me is you have to use it in a case to have a strap. Perhaps the M60II will add strap lugs.
Oh, and the $14,140 price you found, Retow, is great! What country did you import to, and how did the process go? Also, where did you find out about the unit at that price? Certainly not the big online auction site.
Eric
Only missing strap lugs (plus that's a great price)
So I really like the concept of no screen, no options, just focus on taking pictures. There are millions of film Leicas that offer that experience, and a digital version would be entertaining. The one deal killer for me is you have to use it in a case to have a strap. Perhaps the M60II will add strap lugs.
Oh, and the $14,140 price you found, Retow, is great! What country did you import to, and how did the process go? Also, where did you find out about the unit at that price? Certainly not the big online auction site.
My most emotional and irrational purchase ever, it will arrive on Wednesday says UPS, a M60 from Leica Vienna. USD 14,140.00 excl VAT
The M240, Summicron 28, Summilux 35 asph (pre FLE) will be sold to partly finance the purchase.
Eric
David Hughes
David Hughes
Hi,
I love threads like this, they make me really pleased when I pick up a decent camera with a more than decent lens for a pound or two. And now I realise my M2 and Summaron were a real bargain as well. I guess I better go and fondle them to thank them for turning out such brilliant photo's for me. That's my new excuse and I'm sticking to it.
Thanks everyone.
Regards, David
I love threads like this, they make me really pleased when I pick up a decent camera with a more than decent lens for a pound or two. And now I realise my M2 and Summaron were a real bargain as well. I guess I better go and fondle them to thank them for turning out such brilliant photo's for me. That's my new excuse and I'm sticking to it.
Thanks everyone.
Regards, David
Out to Lunch
Ventor
I will take those who actually paid $ 18,500 for the combo seriously. All the others are just cooking a chicken soup philosophy.
Kwesi
Well-known
Thank you for your wonderful response Godfrey, and congrats on your soon to arrive M240-P. Looking forward to seeing some of your urban landscape series with it.