Leica M9 and wideangles

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aniMal

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It sure seems like the FF M9 is really coming... If it was not, I think there would have been some form of denial issued, after all they should know better than alienate RFF fanatics by letting rumours on this persist... So, I guess it is for real!

I was not thinking of being an early adopter, especially for that price. However, I might need to get into wide angles for real this autumn. Was thinking of getting perhaps a sony 900, or wait for the D700x or something.

But, I have some CV lenses to choose from... If this is really a FF 18 mpix that does deliver really good files from say a CV 15mm, then I would at least look at the price tag...

I guess it boils down to how much correction is done in the house, or if the sensor is some new gadget or solution altogether...

What do others think? And hope?
 
Nobody knows obviously (yet).

My guess is the M9 (just like the S2) has a Kodak sensor, with 16bit/color Pixel depths, microlenses, and vignetting and chromatic aberation correction for wide angles in software, making you loose perhaps 4bit color depth or so (for 21 and below). Still plenty of dynamic range left.

We'll see.
 
Now twenty six new M9 threads in a couple of weeks and still going strong ... if this damned camera doesn't materialise on the nineth of the nineth 2009 or whenever the world may just end!

I would imagine the new (cam focusing) 15 mm Heliar would be a gem on any full frame digital M mount rangefinder. Should be perfect on the new Zeiss Digital RF ... when we get it! :p
 
Well, I guess that I really will have to start coding my lenses... Has worked OK so far without it, I just do the basics like vignetting when I convert from DNG.

But how will this conversion affect the performance compared to say a 50mm? Would it not mean that a 50mm will have a better dynamic range available?

I really hope they have not pushed the technology too far, rather than actually finding a good solution to the angle of light problem... A really good FF M9 will be a boost to Leica, and a problematic release like with the M8 would pose some real dangers...
 
aniMal said:
But how will this conversion affect the performance compared to say a 50mm? Would it not mean that a 50mm will have a better dynamic range available?
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That is my guess. Meaning you could shoot a 21mm noiseless down to 1000 ASA, and a 50 down to 16000 ASA or more. Doesn't sound too bad, does it ? :)

Again, engineering speculation only. We'll see in a few days. Once Leica marketing speak has been decoded ....
 
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While I have no problem with software correction of stuff, I'm surprised that owners of expensive Leica glass would be at all happy with significant software messing with the original image through the glass. If they are going to mess with it at all, couldn't they just make cheaper lenses and fix it in the camera software like Panasonic?

I'm guessing the lenses are going to have to be coded for the scheme to work, particularly wide angles.
 
When I say software, I include the camera's firmware, PW. Note that the M8 already does similar correction, just not as strong.

The coding will be the crux. And, if patent protected, also prevent Zeiss or others to do the same - at least when using Leica lenses.
 
The design of film emulsion, color dyes, grain, chemistry, have an effect on the image falling on it. Embedded Software designed to remove sensor artifacts is the digital equivalent.

Think I should post that on APUG.

I'll be taking the Canon P, new J-9, 1935 Sonnar, Canon 35/2 and a few rolls of Kodacolor 400 and fujicolor 200 out now.
 
Hmm... I don't really know about different lenses having very different characteristics! To me that would feel stranger, and more limiting, than the crop factor on the M8.

But if it is fairly the same between say 24/28 and 75 mm, then it would be OK for general photography - with the very wide angles as an option so to speak.

Is it also possible that the angle of the offset lenses will make correction necessary on tele lenses this time around? I will guess so, if it is based on the same technology as the M8...
 
Pickett Wilson said:
While I have no problem with software correction of stuff, I'm surprised that owners of expensive Leica glass would be at all happy with significant software messing with the original image through the glass. If they are going to mess with it at all, couldn't they just make cheaper lenses and fix it in the camera software like Panasonic?

I'm guessing the lenses are going to have to be coded for the scheme to work, particularly wide angles.
Click to expand...

Means to an end. Software correction does not 'mess' things up, it just helps pushing the technological boundaries a bit further. Panasonic does not 'fix' their lenses with software, it compensates for the compromises built into the lens because it cannot cost as much as a Leica lens. Strange as it may seem, most people are not crazy enough to pay 1500$ for a 50mm f2 lens. Because we are, it doesn't mean all other people are wrong.

Wide angles will vignette on the M9, but that's why you have microlenses on the sensor. What's left after that can be evened out in software. Does this make the M9 a crappy camera or Leica wide angles crappy lenses? Of course not. You cannot change the laws of physics.
 
Like I say, I'm all for software correction in camera. The Pany G1 certainly showed what it can do to produce good images. But in the case of a $4,000 Leica lens, some programmer is fooling with the images. I just find it surprising that that owners of these lenses would accept that. I guess the end justifies the means in the case of a FF DRF.
 
The promo shot and info, if not fabricated, indicates that Lightroom is bundled with the camera. If this is true, it makes me wonder if the compensation for the peripheral areas of a wide angle file is built into a special edition of Lightroom. Of course, the sensor would need to be up for the job with regards to dynamic range and preserving the deep shadow information.
 
I guess it all depends on the end result... Leica has always been good at controlling colour rendition and also showed with the M8 that it is possible to produce digital images that look nothing like plastic or artificial.

If they have really good corrections that delivers great results, then I guess it will be all OK...

Also having software correction would surely not bother me the day I can use an M9 alongside my M7 and feel everything is in the way it should be! :)
 
The really big issue with firmware correction for wides is in the use of non-Leica glass. Using the CV 12, 15, 21 and Zeiss wides et al on the M8 is no problem at all, but if FF mandates significantly more in-camera correction and there is no Leica-lens-based code that does it adequately for the non-Leica wides, people will be forced to buy Leica lenses in order to use wides on the M9. Someone undoubtedly will come up with software or PS actions that do it, but those are extra steps.
 
All this is speculation util the camera actually materializes, but...

It's possible that the M9 will need less correction than the M8. If, as some have suggested, the M9's IR filter is between the microlenses and the image plane, then its corner cyan-shift problem may be much less than the M8's. That leaves only ordinary vignetting, which is a very simple matter to deal with in any self-respecting image editor. Given that different lenses vignette differently, and some people like to use it creatively, it may be better to turn the automatic correction off and "fix" some images manually.

I suspect the solution for non-Leica leneses will be the same as it has been with the M8--pick the Leica lens that's closest in behavior to your lens, code the lens or LTM adapter, stop worrying and take pictures. And if it's not quite right, use CornerFix, Photoshop, etc.

And now that the CV 15mm will be a "real" 15 again, we can look forward to big-nosed portraits and photographer's toes straying into the frame... :)
 
[FONT=&quot]The sh*t hits the fan when the 18mp FFM9, turns out to be using a 24mp sensor with much weirdness occurring in the on-board processing, compressing the 24mp sensor’s data output to what one would expect from a FF 18mp effective sensor, in order to overcome the exposure variances with regards to the outside third of the sensor. How this data manipulation will affect ‘lens character’ will be debated endlessly here on RFF. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]At the very least, I think that Leica is going to be going down the same path as Panasonic, with respect to on-board data/image manipulation to solve the lens/FF sensor interface issues. [/FONT]
 
I for one will not be looking forward to endless debates over the merits (or demerits) of image manipulation by firmware, after years of complaints about not having full frame. It is, after all, a digital camera --- there is image manipulation throughout the entire process. ;)
 
Leica's strengths in glass are pretty much made redundant in digi-land by the use of software. Software makes top end lenses a useless and overpriced endeavor by making the picture perfect in software. Sad ... and hard to accept for many, I'm sure ... but the way of the future.

I suspect that the M9 will be a mildly improved M8, probably with the largest difference being more megapixels or perhaps a FF sensor. That will show that Leica is not getting it.
 
Pavel+ said:
I suspect that the M9 will be a mildly improved M8, probably with the largest difference being more megapixels or perhaps a FF sensor. That will show that Leica is not getting it.
Click to expand...

Which changes aren't they implementing which you were hoping to see?
 
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