Pioneer
Veteran
I don't consider myself a "Leica hater" though I may occasionally sound like one. I own lots of Leicas, including two digital models, and shoot them quite a bit.
I also own other cameras and shoot them as well. I enjoy Leica but I don't fool myself into believing they are something different than they really are. Unfortunately, reliability is not the first thing I think of when working with my digital Leicas.
I will say this though. If I need a film camera that I know will work, and a rangefinder fits my needs, I carry a Leica. If I need a digital camera that I know will work, I do not carry a Leica whether or not the rangefinder system would fit my needs.
Finally, I shoot a huge amount of film, and slightly less digital, but I am not out "contentedly" shooting anything. That brings to mind images of a cow standing quietly in a pasture chewing her cud. I'm a little more critical of what I'm doing than that.
nobbylon
Veteran
Well said, j
Highway 61
Revisited
AFAIK there is nothing wrong with the M240 in that respect, it works and there isn't any hidden failure with it.
Kwesi
Well-known
As long as that discussion is restricted to those Leica cameras and their associated accessories.
Having briefly owned an M9 in the distant past does not make you an authority on Leica digital M cameras.
nobbylon
Veteran
A very quick Google turned this up in less than a sec,
http://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/20130826_2-LeicaM240-freeze-reset.html
nobbylon
Veteran
Pioneer
Veteran
You may be right, but it takes time to build that trust and the M240 just hasn't been out there long enough to build that level of trust.
I know it is a different era, and things tend to happen much faster, but I find it useful to look back once in awhile. In the early days of 35mm Leica built up a tradition of trust. Their cameras worked as advertised. Zeiss Ikon came along a little later and produced a very, very nice camera, the Contax I. However that first camera had shutter problems. Zeiss Ikon recovered and produced what I consider to be some excellent cameras after that but that first failure damaged their reputation badly in the 35mm rangefinder arena. They may have recovered from that but WWII intervened and everyone knows the rest of the story. As an interesting side note it is instructive to realize that the Contax II design was actually very robust and survived successfully in the Soviet Union.
To me Leica is currently in that same position. Their film cameras still enjoy a high level of respect and trust in the industry, a trust that has been earned over many, many years. Unfortunately their first M camera entry into the digital world turned out to have problems. That has colored people's attitudes towards Leica's digital cameras. This has unfortunately placed Leica digital into Zeiss Ikon's shoes from the past.
Now, unfortunately for Leica, their 2nd M camera entry into the digital world is found to have potentially crippling problems. I hope their digital M camera reputation survives this double hit. Fortunately they have other digitals that seem to be doing well.
Highway 61
Revisited
I hadn't heard about that "diglloyd" website until that second...
I tend not to rely on whatever website I randomly find out.
If the M240 was really "unreliable" there would be tons of threads about this on the various forums and the usual photo websites. Unfortunately - I can't find any.
Kwesi
Well-known
I never claimed to be! Try not to read what I havent written
For what its worth, I do respect the fact that you have very strong negative feelings regarding digital Leica M cameras.
All I'm saying is that from where I stand there is more emotion than experience coming from you.
Leica is great at evoking passion
nobbylon
Veteran
M digital fans can be so over sensitive. It's not as if there is a dispute about M digital's issues here. I'm giving my opinion on how I see it and what I do about it. If you don't like it then at least be courteous and refrain form personal insults. Its not very classy.
Pioneer
Veteran
I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings but digilloyd has been around for awhile. And that story exists else where as well so I'm not sure it is a "random" report.
Kwesi
Well-known
if you are referring to post #93 above, I am hard pressed to find anything that can be construed as insulting to you there, However please accept my apologies if you feel insulted.
Highway 61
Revisited
Well it's true to say that I discovered diglloyd a few minutes ago thanks to Nobbylon's post.I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings but digilloyd has been around for awhile. And that story exists else where as well so I'm not sure it is a "random" report.
You know - I am neither a Leica buff nor a Leica hater. I don't own any Leica stuff any longer ; I wouldn't have bought neither the M8 nor the M9 but the M240 looks good to me. Yet - I won't buy it, too expensive. I still have a bunch of fine MF Nikkors so the D750 is a nice target.
Looks like I'm a neutral witness of what happens to Leica, wishing them luck, because it's a nice company afterall, and the last European cameras and lenses maker (OK there's Zeiss in Oberkochen, true).
Pioneer
Veteran
I do own digital Leicas. And they are the closest thing in the digital world to their film camera counterparts that anyone offers in my opinion. I bought them to keep them and use them, and I do.
But if I were in a position where my equipment HAD to work I would still have my Canon kit.
To keep things in perspective though, the Canon equipment was the first thing I dumped to help raise money for the MM. Very reliable but no soul.
Leica may not be so reliable but it has plenty of soul. And for me at this point in my life that is more important. So, like I said before, I love my Leicas while understanding their limitations at the same time.
Just call me odd!
But if I were in a position where my equipment HAD to work I would still have my Canon kit.
To keep things in perspective though, the Canon equipment was the first thing I dumped to help raise money for the MM. Very reliable but no soul.
Leica may not be so reliable but it has plenty of soul. And for me at this point in my life that is more important. So, like I said before, I love my Leicas while understanding their limitations at the same time.
Just call me odd!
Pioneer
Veteran
But I should add, Leica is not the only company with issues. Lest you be in a rush to buy Sony you may want to read the digilloyd blog a little more. Not only has the Sony company been hacked but it could be possible that their camera firmware updates and updating methods may have been hacked as well.
V-12
Well-known
If you've been a Leica user for any length of time I think you'd have taken a more laid back view, which is what many people were advocating. Those people saw through the clumsy statements and knew that Leica always come through in solving problems. Instead those same people were shouted down by many more in full panic mode caused by short sighted whiners who thought they saw a good opportunity to go through all the reasons that Leica don't make cameras specifically to their own specifications. The classy thing to have done is not fan a fire that was never going to do anything other than smoulder and go out.
V
Tom Niblick
Well-known
I just had a sensor replacement on my M9 a few months back. I was surprised because it went in for a cleaning of the crud I couldn't get off the sensor myself. At the time I thought maybe it was faster and easier for Leica repair to replace the sensor rather than clean it. Who knows?
Anyway, I'm a happy camper. My 5 year old camera works like new and if it happens again (if they have the same replacement offer in 5 years), I'll do it again. The M9 my favorite camera of all time. I plan to keep it. I just hope they make the same offer for the S2. A $5,000 upgrade/trade-in on a $22,000 camera is not going to make me very happy.
Anyway, I'm a happy camper. My 5 year old camera works like new and if it happens again (if they have the same replacement offer in 5 years), I'll do it again. The M9 my favorite camera of all time. I plan to keep it. I just hope they make the same offer for the S2. A $5,000 upgrade/trade-in on a $22,000 camera is not going to make me very happy.
oltimer
Well-known
I also want to thank John for posting up the site connection on Diglloyd. I'm wondering are us Leica owners "to proud" to come out in the open with problems like were seeing recently. This thread is full of owners who had problems in the past; but we are now being swamped with "this happened to my M9 too" a while back, and was fixed. Why are we so quiet till now?
nobbylon
Veteran
Why should I be more laid back as you call it ? Am I not allowed an opinion ? It seems that you along with plenty of others advocate giving large chunks of cash away to be testers of a defective product released too early without enough test time under it's belt.
Short sighted whinners translates into users who expect value for money and a product that is fit for purpose and will actually say something about it rather then make excuses for their adored manufacturer.
Fan a fire that was only going to smoulder? please, it's been burning since the release of the M8 with no signs of dying out!
The more this is defended the more situations will arise simply because more inferior products will be released by a company that knows people will buy them anyway even if the testing hasn't been done.
I know I'm saying stuff that others don't like but I'm not saying anything that's untrue. You only have to have been present on this forum and the Leica user forum since the M8's release to read that. It's all here for everyone to read and is no secret so why defend it?
Roger Hicks
Veteran
If you don't know, we can't tell you.
It's just... well... easier and more pleasant than being permanently angry. Especially being permanently angry about things you can control, like not buying things you don't need/don't like/don't even really want.
Cheers,
R.