Leica Out of M8 / 8.2 Sensors ??

[OurManInTangier]

...... Why shouldn't I expect a digital camera to last for 20 years?

A fair question. A digital camera, replete with its necessary batteries, cards and chargers can go on for many many years without any great issue and certainly well beyond the period the manufacturer continues to support it. Personally I get the impression many expect, or perhaps more fairly desire, a lifetime of support for their chosen electronic product which I think we all know simply won't happen. However a lack of continued support and/or parts does not constitute the immediate end of its lifespan. I know of at least three experienced professional press photographers who still provide national and international newspapers with pictures from Nikon D1H bodies and not one of them is interested in dropping 5k on a new D4 when they can make money by 'making do.'

Having said all of the above I would always advise virtually any purchase to be made after much thought about depreciation, continued support/warranty, your personal needs/requirements and available cash. Doesn't matter if it's a car, camera or a marriage...( 😉 ) I've enjoyed using the M8 and M9 but made the very personal decision to sell out of the system and go with the 'cheaper' Fuji set-up even though the same issues are as likely to affect my Fuji as affect a Leica, it's simply a part of owning something that ages.

In the case of the M8 specifically, isn't this a problem that's come about through Kodak's implosion rather more than a decision from Leica to simply stop supporting this product entirely?

 

[burancap]

The only "problem" with such a sensor death and burial is the price of the M8. If it had been a $450 camera, there would be less said here. Maybe this suggests that due to yearly innovations in digital technology, we should not buy an expensive digital camera.

Well, that was ultimately my tack.

As much as I did not like the conclusion, I sold all of my digital Leicas.

That said, and in fairness, the typical M8 fault is usually not the sensor!

 

[user237428934]

Phase One greatly improved high iso, although in MFBD high is a relative term, in capture One v7 over previous ones. The improvement was to all legacy backs as well as current. Other parameters were also improved, all these visibly so not just in numbers.

That's the point. The Raw converters got better over the time, not the cameras by firmware updates. That's a mistake people made with the M8. With every firmware update a new thread came and people discussed if the high iso quality is now better. Some saw an improvement but in the end they compared output from an older raw converter with the output of a newer raw converter.

 

[CameraQuest]

The only "problem" with such a sensor death and burial is the price of the M8. If it had been a $450 camera, there would be less said here. Maybe this suggests that due to yearly innovations in digital technology, we should not buy an expensive digital camera.

I am crossing my fingers on my M8 and M9. If both fail, I will go back to film cameras.

I don't think any digital camera buyer expects parts and service to be available "forever."

The upgrade service is a sign of good faith from Leica. I'm looking forward to hearing form people who have upgraded via sensor death. I would like to hear where, and for how much. Presumably the price of an upgrade could vary from country to country as well as the circumstances of the 8/8.2 demise. The sensor failure of a new white elephant M8 commemorative (just sold and out of the box) would likely be treated differently from a worn working M8 with 125,000 shutter activations.

Of course, there is also prudent caution when buying ANY commemorative digital camera at some huge premium (from ANY camera maker). Does anyone really think such a thing will be a good investment once its sensor is inevitably hopelessly outdated?


Stephen

 

[hepcat]

I don't think any digital camera buyer expects parts and service to be available "forever."

The upgrade service is a sign of good faith from Leica. I'm looking forward to hearing form people who have upgraded via sensor death. I would like to hear where, and for how much. Presumably the price of an upgrade could vary from country to country as well as the circumstances of the 8/8.2 demise. The sensor failure of a new white elephant M8 commemorative (just sold and out of the box) would likely be treated differently from a worn working M8 with 125,000 shutter activations.

Of course, there is also prudent caution when buying ANY commemorative digital camera at some huge premium (from ANY camera maker). Does anyone really think such a thing will be a good investment once its sensor is inevitably hopelessly outdated?


Stephen

The key phrase, Stephen, is "hopelessly outdated" which does NOT equate with "obsolete" or "unusable" as intimated by some posters here. Once again, I appreciate Leica's good-will gesture, even while expecting not to have to take advantage of their offer for many years for MY M8. But it's good to know it's on the table.

Raid hit on the key to this whole thread... the price of the cameras...

I am not wealthy by any means. I'm a working photographer, but I paid the price of admission to Leica (all used, of course) and I have no qualms about it. If you do, then don't buy them. It's pretty simple, really.

Leica is sold with a two year warranty new (a third year can be purchased.) They don't offer a lifetime warranty, and despite their advertising shouldn't be construed as anything more than what they are. The problem is that people say "well, for THAT much money they should..." Well, no they shouldn't. And they can't. What you're buying is a hand-assembled, high-quality, hand-tested camera with current electronics technology (at the time of manufacture,) nothing more and nothing less. In this case, Leica is a victim of their own past successes with the longevity of their legacy products.

The bottom line remains that the M8 is a solid, if quirky, performer and will remain so as long as the cameras continue to operate. And there are thousands of them out there that will operate as designed for years to come. And it's nice to know that when they fail, Leica is ready to stand behind that product to the extent that they can, even though it may no longer be repairable. I think that's pretty good customer service.

 

[Michael Markey]

The key phrase, Stephen, is "hopelessly outdated" which does NOT equate with "obsolete" or "unusable" as intimated by some posters here. Once again, I appreciate Leica's good-will gesture, even while expecting not to have to take advantage of their offer for many years for MY M8. But it's good to know it's on the table.

Raid hit on the key to this whole thread... the price of the cameras...

I am not wealthy by any means. I'm a working photographer, but I paid the price of admission to Leica (all used, of course) and I have no qualms about it. If you do, then don't buy them. It's pretty simple, really.

Leica is sold with a two year warranty new (a third year can be purchased.) They don't offer a lifetime warranty, and despite their advertising shouldn't be construed as anything more than what they are. The problem is that people say "well, for THAT much money they should..." Well, no they shouldn't. And they can't. What you're buying is a hand-assembled, high-quality, hand-tested camera with current electronics technology (at the time of manufacture😉 nothing more and nothing less. In this case, Leica is a victim of their own past successes with the longevity of their legacy products.

The bottom line remains that the M8 is a solid, if quirky, performer and will remain so as long as the cameras continue to operate. And there are thousands of them out there that will operate as designed for years to come. And it's nice to know that when they fail, Leica is ready to stand behind that product to the extent that they can, even though it may no longer be repairable. I think that's pretty good customer service.

That`s a more measured reflection on the situation.
I agree that they are a victim of their own past in this regard and the resultant expectations of their customers.

How they deal with those issues is , I guess , a matter for them.

 

[Emile de Leon]

Thing is..if the digital M cam could actually and reliably keep going for 8 to 12 years..and I'm sure some will..not all will...but some...may..
..then your intial investment can be amortized over a longer period of time..
about 15 to 20 bux per week..over the lifetime of the cam..
But if it lived for only 4 to 5 years..then its kind of like... hmmm..
And 4 to 5 years..is for computer products..pretty much the limit for reliability..as well as staying current in technology...
With an older used film M..the mantra is..condition condition condition..
With a digital cam..its..price price price..
Leica M is so expensive..when 1 lil itty bitty part goes that cant be replaced..so does your cash...right out the window..
If I were to eventually buy one..and I probably will..its probably best to just dump it every 2 to 3 years...and buy the next model..as they hold value pretty well..and use the cash to stay current...keep the warrantee intact..and eliminate..the dreaded ..we cant fix it anymore..M owner..shock....

 

[bob338]

I don't think any digital camera buyer expects parts and service to be available "forever."

The upgrade service is a sign of good faith from Leica. I'm looking forward to hearing form people who have upgraded via sensor death. I would like to hear where, and for how much.
Stephen

I'll chime in with my experience. This was about 2 years ago.
I had a second hand M8 that developed the coffee stain issue. I sent it to Leica NJ, with the admission upfront that it was a second hand camera. They had it for a week or two and called me to let me know that it could not be repaired. She asked me to hold tight for a couple of weeks while they waited to hear from Germany what the conclusion would be.
They called me back to tell me that Solms had decided to offer me a new M9 for $2300. I would have to wait a couple of months for delivery because it had to come from the factory, they were not allowed to give out cameras from their inventory.
I was given the option of a standard M9, or the then-fairly-new M-P for a little more money. I opted for the standard M9. I would probably have gone for a Monochrom if they were available, but they had not yet been announced.

If you look at this objectively, Leica were very generous with me. I've bought one new Leica lens in all the years I've been using their gear, and I've probably owned north of a hundred lenses. They could have told me to pound sand, but they honored an out of warranty camera that was traded to me by someone who bought it in the US, grey market from England! Also, M9s were out of stock everywhere for a long time, and to take a hit like this in the middle of an inventory shortage is commendable.

Before the coffee stain issue, I sent my M8 in for what looked like lines in my images. They replaced the sensor and gave the body a CLA, for no charge.

I guess I don't reply to much on here anymore because the Leica bashing gets old. There actually are really decent people working there, and the guy who owns the place seems like he genuinely loves his company. I don't think they showed me any favoritism, why would they? I will say that I have never had a conversation with anyone there that wasn't polite and pleasant. After the whole thing was done, I sent an email to my contacts supervisor, praising her professionalism. I also copied it to Mr. Kauffman.

Just my .02.

Bob

 

[Lss]

I had a second hand M8 that developed the coffee stain issue.

I hope the replacement offer for failed sensor will be significantly better than for the coffee stain issue. There's a significant difference between a dead camera and a cosmetic issue on a fully functioning one.

 

[bob338]

I hope the replacement offer for failed sensor will be significantly better than for the coffee stain issue. There's a significant difference between a dead camera and a cosmetic issue on a fully functioning one.

Where does this sense of entitlement come from? The camera has a specific period of warranty that eventually ends. Why would you expect them to extend that time? Does Nikon or Canon warranty their cameras forever?
The transmission in my car is starting to show signs of failure. Should Mercedes replace it, even though the warranty ended 5 years ago?
Did Kodak give away millions of rolls of film to their customers who felt they should keep producing 126 film?
It's absurd to expect anyone to warranty something forever, unless they say they will warranty it forever. If you don't like the terms of the sale, don't buy the camera.
I think they should be applauded for taking care of as many of their customers as they can.

 

[Pioneer]

Where does this sense of entitlement come from? The camera has a specific period of warranty that eventually ends. Why would you expect them to extend that time? Does Nikon or Canon warranty their cameras forever?
The transmission in my car is starting to show signs of failure. Should Mercedes replace it, even though the warranty ended 5 years ago?
Did Kodak give away millions of rolls of film to their customers who felt they should keep producing 126 film?
It's absurd to expect anyone to warranty something forever, unless they say they will warranty it forever. If you don't like the terms of the sale, don't buy the camera.
I think they should be applauded for taking care of as many of their customers as they can.

+100

I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly.

 

[f16sunshine]

Where does this sense of entitlement come from? The camera has a specific period of warranty that eventually ends. Why would you expect them to extend that time? Does Nikon or Canon warranty their cameras forever?
The transmission in my car is starting to show signs of failure. Should Mercedes replace it, even though the warranty ended 5 years ago?
Did Kodak give away millions of rolls of film to their customers who felt they should keep producing 126 film?
It's absurd to expect anyone to warranty something forever, unless they say they will warranty it forever. If you don't like the terms of the sale, don't buy the camera.
I think they should be applauded for taking care of as many of their customers as they can.

Warranty no, repair at actual cost ... yes!
Time will tell. If the exchange value balanced with an actual replacement of dead sensor cost then kudos Leica.
If it's BS then Eff em.

It's a premium product it should have premium support. Period!

 

[Lss]

Where does this sense of entitlement come from? The camera has a specific period of warranty that eventually ends. Why would you expect them to extend that time? Does Nikon or Canon warranty their cameras forever?

Don't make stuff up, please. There is no entitlement here at all. Like I said, I hope the replacement offer for a dead camera (which I assume they would fix given a newly found supply of M8 sensors) is better than for a cosmetic issue on a functioning camera. This has nothing to do with Nikon or Canon. I like the product, the terms of sale, and I have no complaints about Leica customer service.

 

[uhoh7]

Mortality is such a bummer.

 

[mani]

The transmission in my car is starting to show signs of failure. Should Mercedes replace it, even though the warranty ended 5 years ago? ...I think they should be applauded for taking care of as many of their customers as they can.

Well that's not an analogous situation at all.

This is like you were suddenly told no-one can fix the gearbox in your Mercedes anymore, and when it breaks you have a worthless chunk of metal on your hands that you can't even sell for spares.

So when you want to fix it instead of the cost being $1300 from your local workshop, Mercedes offers to let you buy a new car from them for the reduced price of $88,000. Just think - when your gearbox fails they give you the chance to save $12,000 on a new car!
Now I call that generous!

 

[hepcat]

Warranty no, repair at actual cost ... yes!

It's a premium product it should have premium support. Period!

It appears that they do offer premium support; at least no other manufacturer I know of offers what they do.

Well that's not an analogous situation at all.

This is like you were suddenly told no-one can fix the gearbox in your Mercedes anymore, and when it breaks you have a worthless chunk of metal on your hands that you can't even sell for spares.

So when you want to fix it instead of the cost being $1300 from your local workshop, Mercedes offers to let you buy a new car from them for the reduced price of $88,000. Just think - when your gearbox fails they give you the chance to save $12,000 on a new car!
Now I call that generous!

Actually, it is analogous, and it would be quite generous. Except that in Bob's case, Leica offered a $6,000 replacement camera for $2,300; in your analogy with the same Mercedes at the same percentage of discount, they'd offer you an $88,000 car for $30,000.

 

[kbg32]

In the case of the M8 specifically, isn't this a problem that's come about through Kodak's implosion rather more than a decision from Leica to simply stop supporting this product entirely?

Thank you Simon. I pointed that out in an earlier post, #36. The sensors have nothing to do with Leica since they were made by Kodak. Kodak sold off their sensor division to stay afloat. Somewhat ironic isn't it? Kodak developed the digital sensor, but through early and continued mismanagement, didn't see the potential before everyone else ran away with the ball. By then it was too late to catch up.

http://www.cnet.com/news/kodaks-image-sensor-spin-off-gets-a-name-truesense/

If you want your sensors, complain to Truesense Imaging. Maybe, just maybe, they will offer replacements.

 

[rbelyell]

i marvel at 4 pages on this topic, and how so many, after scores of such topics, continue to believe they can with reason convert the zealot on even minor points. we cant, stop wasting time; the mercedes 'analogy' amply demostrates the diehard commitment to an alternate reality. a nod is the same as a wink to a blind horse.

 

[hepcat]

i marvel at 4 pages on this topic, and how so many, after scores of such topics, continue to believe they can with reason convert the zealot on even minor points. we cant, stop wasting time; the mercedes 'analogy' amply demostrates the diehard commitment to an alternate reality. a nod is the same as a wink to a blind horse.

Your post is enigmatic.

 

[dcsang]

I've been told unofficially that Leica is out of the M8 / 8.2 sensors and will not be getting more.

Apparently what is being done instead is the Leica importer in that country offering the customer a credit upgrade towards a current production Monochrome or ME or M240 - or sometimes a refurbished M9 if they are available.

The amount of the credit and towards what camera seems to be dependent upon what you can negotiate with your national importer.

If anyone has additional details, please share.

Stephen

I've gone back over this thread - all 4 agonizing pages of it so far 😀 - and no one has been able to confirm Stephen's suspicions.

We all (myself included of course) naturally assumed that what Stephen said was "law" per se.

So, has anyone had any official confirmation from Leica on this?

Cheers,
Dave