Tom A
RFF Sponsor
Would it be safe to say that maybe 25% have bit the dust, 15% get used to some degree or another, 55% are stored servicable/unservicable and the last 5% are in the collection of Tom A? 
What's your guess?[/QUOTE]
I refuse to take responsibility for more than 12 current M2's!!! I went back and looked at one of my old Hove Camera Leica books. It dates back to mid 90's. At that time I used to write down the #number of what ever camera I had and also lenses! There were about 45 M2's listed as having passed through my hands in a period of 8 years (as well as 20+ M3's, 21 M4P's and about 8 M6's). I bought some. traded some and then passed them on to other users.
I think with M2's - 70-80% still exists. Many, way too many, sit in desk drawers or in boxes in the attic, long forgotten. However. many are still in use. The RFf is but small collection of people whose interest in photography is far more involved than the majority of M2 owners. I have met owners of M2's who have no idea about the 'net and no interest in it either. But they keep the old M2 going with maybe 1-2 rolls/year. Their main complain seems to be the ability to find #625 Mercury batteries for their old MR Meters! Those of us who use the RFf and who check E-bay and frequent camera swaps are a minority. So don't despair - there still finds to be made out there.
What's your guess?[/QUOTE]
I refuse to take responsibility for more than 12 current M2's!!! I went back and looked at one of my old Hove Camera Leica books. It dates back to mid 90's. At that time I used to write down the #number of what ever camera I had and also lenses! There were about 45 M2's listed as having passed through my hands in a period of 8 years (as well as 20+ M3's, 21 M4P's and about 8 M6's). I bought some. traded some and then passed them on to other users.
I think with M2's - 70-80% still exists. Many, way too many, sit in desk drawers or in boxes in the attic, long forgotten. However. many are still in use. The RFf is but small collection of people whose interest in photography is far more involved than the majority of M2 owners. I have met owners of M2's who have no idea about the 'net and no interest in it either. But they keep the old M2 going with maybe 1-2 rolls/year. Their main complain seems to be the ability to find #625 Mercury batteries for their old MR Meters! Those of us who use the RFf and who check E-bay and frequent camera swaps are a minority. So don't despair - there still finds to be made out there.
They say 60% of Porsches are still on the road, if that is accurate, then I'd venture the figure is higher for Leicas that still exist.
Frank Petronio
Well-known
Somebody said somewhere that only 10% of the serious photographers were active in these online communities -- RFF, APUG, pnet, etc. -- and when you think that there are thousands of people posting on the top the dozen communities, it gives you a better idea -- say there are 100,000 togs active between all the forums.... Times ten is a million serious photographers worldwide, and if 1% use Leica, that is still 10,000. If a third of the Leica users use older M2-3-4 bodies, then that is 3,333 cameras in action, plus perhaps another 3,333 in collectors' hands? Figure that my 10%, million, and 1% numbers are guesses that are on the low side, so I might be off by a factor of 3 or 5, but probably not 10 or 20.... that puts it at between 3,000 to 15,000 or so vintage M2-3-4 bodies still being used and perhaps an equal number in "active, functional" collections.
Say 10% of those active Leicas have been repaired with sacrificial parts, which isn't that much -- which leaves the difference from the total production -- a huge number, hidden away or trashed. Since I doubt few people, even stupid ones, would toss a Leica away, I bet most are in the attic, closet, or in the dresser under the socks.
Excuse me, I have to hit the obituary section for the names of servicemen who were stationed in 1950s Germany....
Say 10% of those active Leicas have been repaired with sacrificial parts, which isn't that much -- which leaves the difference from the total production -- a huge number, hidden away or trashed. Since I doubt few people, even stupid ones, would toss a Leica away, I bet most are in the attic, closet, or in the dresser under the socks.
Excuse me, I have to hit the obituary section for the names of servicemen who were stationed in 1950s Germany....
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Nando
Well-known
I have a very early M3 from 1954 and it works just as well as my 3-year-old MP.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
The "pirating" of parts from older cameras (M's) is a recent happening. Up until the early to mid 90's. you could still get parts for your M2/M3 from Leica. The only parts today, that are exclusive to a specific models is finder parts for M3's. M2/M4 finders are mostly the same as the 0.72 finder in a M6/MP. Shutter curtains, springs etc is interchangeble too.
Somewhere I saw a statistic that 80% of all Rolls Royce made are still intact - since 1904! Mechanical devices are easier to fix and extend the life span on than electronic "modules". I suspect that a moderately well taken care of M2/M4 and maybe even a M3 - could still be going strong for another century. M's are not complex cameras - they are and were well designed and Leica in their wisdom left most functions intact over the decades. Why change what doesn't need changing - particularly as we are quite satisfied with a top speed of 1/1000 and a flash synch of 1/50. Film advance. rewind and shutter operation is not much different from a 1930's Leica I and todays MP.
The fact that the lens mount is backwards compatible is another "longevity" factor. I can mount a 1930 Hektor 50f2.5 on a M8 with an adapter! This is very much why Leica still is in business and they deserve credit for that design and holding on to it, in spite of the challenges it gives them with lens designs.
Somewhere I saw a statistic that 80% of all Rolls Royce made are still intact - since 1904! Mechanical devices are easier to fix and extend the life span on than electronic "modules". I suspect that a moderately well taken care of M2/M4 and maybe even a M3 - could still be going strong for another century. M's are not complex cameras - they are and were well designed and Leica in their wisdom left most functions intact over the decades. Why change what doesn't need changing - particularly as we are quite satisfied with a top speed of 1/1000 and a flash synch of 1/50. Film advance. rewind and shutter operation is not much different from a 1930's Leica I and todays MP.
The fact that the lens mount is backwards compatible is another "longevity" factor. I can mount a 1930 Hektor 50f2.5 on a M8 with an adapter! This is very much why Leica still is in business and they deserve credit for that design and holding on to it, in spite of the challenges it gives them with lens designs.
MCTuomey
Veteran
it's interesting to speculate on the OP's question, but really i have no idea. one thought is to query the repair shops - there aren't that many. if a leica needs a repair visit once every 20 years and x number are repaired per year, then 20(x) would equal the units in use.
of the photographers i know (real life, outside of the forums i visit), casual or pro, i'm the only one who uses a leica regularly. film-wise, there's some LF, some MF, a few SLRs, one fellow with a nikon RF, but no leicas, afaik. most of the shooting is digital, especially the working guys.
of the photographers i know (real life, outside of the forums i visit), casual or pro, i'm the only one who uses a leica regularly. film-wise, there's some LF, some MF, a few SLRs, one fellow with a nikon RF, but no leicas, afaik. most of the shooting is digital, especially the working guys.
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I've not seen another Leica M in use in this farming/ranching/college town. None in the years taking art/photography courses at the college, no other in the local photo club, and when the lab's custom printer put on a photo outing he exclaimed in surprise at seeing my old M2.
When I bought this button rewind model in July 1967 it was already about 9 years old, and may well have had a busy professional life behind it. It was pretty clean, though, just a few small nicks and light scratches, cost me $150. It's still in use, but not among my commonly used. I have used it more in the last few years, after getting my first 50mm RF lens.
When I bought this button rewind model in July 1967 it was already about 9 years old, and may well have had a busy professional life behind it. It was pretty clean, though, just a few small nicks and light scratches, cost me $150. It's still in use, but not among my commonly used. I have used it more in the last few years, after getting my first 50mm RF lens.
kemal_mumcu
Well-known
It just seems a shame to think of all these beautiful machines that sit around passing the time rotting away. Not just Leicas though, my parents have an old Nikon from the 70s that just doesn't get used anymore (except when I'm home to visit them). Today's plastic cameras are junk really, not designed to last more than a couple years of serious use. Its nice to see things built to last and to be appreciated longer than fashion says it should be. I think this is the only reason why I wonder how many M's are sitting around not being used. Victim of human nature. But this is life I guess.
I think this is partially why I bought the M2 - it was already hopelessly out of date! I don't have to worry about buying the latest M because the M2 was already a classic and just as much in/out of fashion as ever. It suits my hobby needs to a "T", I have a camera that takes great pictures that won't go out of style and should last me as I go through life taking recording of what passes through my vision.
This is not to say that I eschew progress though. A digital or an M7 one day would compliment the M2 well I think.
I think this is partially why I bought the M2 - it was already hopelessly out of date! I don't have to worry about buying the latest M because the M2 was already a classic and just as much in/out of fashion as ever. It suits my hobby needs to a "T", I have a camera that takes great pictures that won't go out of style and should last me as I go through life taking recording of what passes through my vision.
This is not to say that I eschew progress though. A digital or an M7 one day would compliment the M2 well I think.
thawkins
Well-known
My M3 turned 50 last month. I send two-three rolls of tri-x, delta 100 or an occasional roll or transparancy film through it each month. I anticipate retirement in eight to ten years and expect film consumption to multiply at that time. Somewhere along the way I will add and M2 and few more lens. Life will be good.
thawkins
thawkins
giellaleafapmu
Well-known
Wow, only now reading this thread I realised that my iiig will be 50 next year! That's one of the non digital cameras I use more, hopefully it will be used still for many years to come...
GLF
nobbylon
Veteran
is that a 993 turbo you have there? nice! j
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
I have on its way to me an M2 that was made probably about three weeks before I was born in 1958. That's starting to get pretty old -- but I have older cameras than that (I bet many of you do also) that also work fine. What is so impressive about the M cameras, though, is that in many respects they haven't been bettered in all the years since -- I think of the rangefinder/viewfinder especially.
Rui Morais de Sousa
Established
Leica retirement
Leica retirement
Thank you for the nice / interesting post Mr. Kemal. I very often think about it too, so I wish to contribute my share, and as usually, I will speak for myself and my Leicas. The older one, M3, is 53 years old; My M2 is from 1959, and my "youngest" one, M4-2 is from 1978 I guess - too lazy to check up. When I divorced some years ago, my ex- brought with her a M4 from 1968 and a M5 from around 74 or 75 - again too lazy to check up. As in the meantime she had a stroke, my sons brought these two Leicas back to me again. So I can use five M's, and let me assure you, that all of them are healthy and doing their duty well = taking photographs! They might not have a very busy life nowadays (I mostly try to earn my living with some "kind of strange" Medium Format cameras - Corfield WA67, Horseman SW612 - or Large Format equipment...), but they are also far from retired. I specially enjoy using them in my black & white personnal work (As I enjoy using my Hassi and My Rollei TLR, etc). But let me give you an example: the M3 (Damm it! She's working for more than half a century!!!) was my company on a trip over Europe last summer (a "couple" miles more to her mileage...), along with an Elmarit 28mm, 50mm Summicron and 90mm Tele-Elmarit. Nothing fancy, just a nice travelling outfit, I would say. As always, duty done! But please, allow me to add, that my Leicas are just simple working-horses: they are not covered with indian goat or lizard's skinn, or gold or diamonds. Just "good old" Leicas that will keep forever young. Just cameras made to be cameras! I don't compare them with nice luxus cars like Rolls or Porshes, but instead I think of them like I think of my pick-up Land Rover Defender: robust and strong; good old friends that fail sometimes, but that I can trust. They carry me through good and bad... And I don't believe that they ever needed to "pirate" someone else's parts, to be capable of keeping doing so. Reliable instruments!
That brings me to some points I would like to comment about some of the answers you got: one of the things that I really tend to dislike about using Leicas, is that Leica is getting more and more a kind of status symbol, a fashion acessoir, and less and less an aparatus used by "real" photographers. I can even understand the genuine lovers who aprecciate to collect them - yes, it makes prices get higher, but maybe that also makes people care more about them. Probably it is because of the caring love of some collectors, that so many have survived. I even understand very well, that lady who is not able to part from her husband's Leica, a good memory from a loved gone-one, though she can't even use it...
BUT I DO REALLY HATE LEICA SNOBBERY!!! Yes I know: rich people keep Leica alive, but rich people don't need to be snob! And yes, I don't think that using a point and shoot makes someone a PHOTOGRAPHER, and the same applies to using a Leica! On the other way, I can say that a Photographer might very well use a point and shoot as well as a Leica, and still be a Photographer!!!
What brings me to the last point: yes, I also believe that WE, Photographers, are a disappearing kind of "animals", often having to struggle to survive, often having to fight for our (copy)rights and for our money, often disrespected by dishonest clients, facing all the economical crisis without any help from governments or banks, often fighting for our ideals (even if it is only our passion for photography), some of us even risking their lives (I am NOT one of them!)! Yes, there are still some of us, who try to do an honest job, making nice photos for the magazine and books people read, perpetuating the happy moments in people's lifes, showing half of mankind the suffering of the other half, trying to help the homeless and the poor, trying to keep our kids fed, trying to pay our bills and taxes, and so on and so on. So please, give us the respect we deserve!
(And this time, I don't even bother to apologize for my bad english: probably "some" of you also don't speak my "language"). Rui
Leica retirement
Thank you for the nice / interesting post Mr. Kemal. I very often think about it too, so I wish to contribute my share, and as usually, I will speak for myself and my Leicas. The older one, M3, is 53 years old; My M2 is from 1959, and my "youngest" one, M4-2 is from 1978 I guess - too lazy to check up. When I divorced some years ago, my ex- brought with her a M4 from 1968 and a M5 from around 74 or 75 - again too lazy to check up. As in the meantime she had a stroke, my sons brought these two Leicas back to me again. So I can use five M's, and let me assure you, that all of them are healthy and doing their duty well = taking photographs! They might not have a very busy life nowadays (I mostly try to earn my living with some "kind of strange" Medium Format cameras - Corfield WA67, Horseman SW612 - or Large Format equipment...), but they are also far from retired. I specially enjoy using them in my black & white personnal work (As I enjoy using my Hassi and My Rollei TLR, etc). But let me give you an example: the M3 (Damm it! She's working for more than half a century!!!) was my company on a trip over Europe last summer (a "couple" miles more to her mileage...), along with an Elmarit 28mm, 50mm Summicron and 90mm Tele-Elmarit. Nothing fancy, just a nice travelling outfit, I would say. As always, duty done! But please, allow me to add, that my Leicas are just simple working-horses: they are not covered with indian goat or lizard's skinn, or gold or diamonds. Just "good old" Leicas that will keep forever young. Just cameras made to be cameras! I don't compare them with nice luxus cars like Rolls or Porshes, but instead I think of them like I think of my pick-up Land Rover Defender: robust and strong; good old friends that fail sometimes, but that I can trust. They carry me through good and bad... And I don't believe that they ever needed to "pirate" someone else's parts, to be capable of keeping doing so. Reliable instruments!
That brings me to some points I would like to comment about some of the answers you got: one of the things that I really tend to dislike about using Leicas, is that Leica is getting more and more a kind of status symbol, a fashion acessoir, and less and less an aparatus used by "real" photographers. I can even understand the genuine lovers who aprecciate to collect them - yes, it makes prices get higher, but maybe that also makes people care more about them. Probably it is because of the caring love of some collectors, that so many have survived. I even understand very well, that lady who is not able to part from her husband's Leica, a good memory from a loved gone-one, though she can't even use it...
BUT I DO REALLY HATE LEICA SNOBBERY!!! Yes I know: rich people keep Leica alive, but rich people don't need to be snob! And yes, I don't think that using a point and shoot makes someone a PHOTOGRAPHER, and the same applies to using a Leica! On the other way, I can say that a Photographer might very well use a point and shoot as well as a Leica, and still be a Photographer!!!
What brings me to the last point: yes, I also believe that WE, Photographers, are a disappearing kind of "animals", often having to struggle to survive, often having to fight for our (copy)rights and for our money, often disrespected by dishonest clients, facing all the economical crisis without any help from governments or banks, often fighting for our ideals (even if it is only our passion for photography), some of us even risking their lives (I am NOT one of them!)! Yes, there are still some of us, who try to do an honest job, making nice photos for the magazine and books people read, perpetuating the happy moments in people's lifes, showing half of mankind the suffering of the other half, trying to help the homeless and the poor, trying to keep our kids fed, trying to pay our bills and taxes, and so on and so on. So please, give us the respect we deserve!
(And this time, I don't even bother to apologize for my bad english: probably "some" of you also don't speak my "language"). Rui
dan denmark
No Get Well cards please
it is an intersting point, that there are so many more cameras out there in boxes than in active hands, it might seem. out here in rural and remote country victoria, australia, i know of three M2s that belong to artist friends in my age group (62-ish) who used their cameras in the 60s and 70s at city art school and for several years afterwards. but life's requirements sent the cameras farther and farther back towards the backburner while earning a living at the things rural life demands took over.
we often get together for a wood-fired pizza and i'm the only one who still shoots regularly (i do it for a living where the others still farm at something or other). but they all well and truly know what they have in their respective shoeboxes and would be loathe to move them on for any reason. and i respect them for that because, if we go back to the earlier pencil/typewriter analogy, they know the batteries will never go flat and they won't get any blown out pixels. and who knows, they reserve and deserve the right to one day pull the old M2s out and run a roll of film through them, if only for novlety...because a lot of photography out there is for just that. but somehow i think that an M2 in their hands again might spark more than novelty. it is a geat tool to have and i still use mine as well as a recently re-aquired M3 but the bulk of what i do is with MF, an RB and Fuji GW690. ironically in the context of many users on RFF i use the RD and M8 as more the P&Sers on weekends, however artfully. that is by no means a slur on these two cameras, but they are pretty much idiot-proof in comparison to the film machines.
and as an artist i still use my pencils and rapidograph set (remember those?) but, alas, the old remington clacker went to the op shop yonks ago.
enjoy it while you can. but use what makes you feel most comfortable.
-dd
we often get together for a wood-fired pizza and i'm the only one who still shoots regularly (i do it for a living where the others still farm at something or other). but they all well and truly know what they have in their respective shoeboxes and would be loathe to move them on for any reason. and i respect them for that because, if we go back to the earlier pencil/typewriter analogy, they know the batteries will never go flat and they won't get any blown out pixels. and who knows, they reserve and deserve the right to one day pull the old M2s out and run a roll of film through them, if only for novlety...because a lot of photography out there is for just that. but somehow i think that an M2 in their hands again might spark more than novelty. it is a geat tool to have and i still use mine as well as a recently re-aquired M3 but the bulk of what i do is with MF, an RB and Fuji GW690. ironically in the context of many users on RFF i use the RD and M8 as more the P&Sers on weekends, however artfully. that is by no means a slur on these two cameras, but they are pretty much idiot-proof in comparison to the film machines.
and as an artist i still use my pencils and rapidograph set (remember those?) but, alas, the old remington clacker went to the op shop yonks ago.
enjoy it while you can. but use what makes you feel most comfortable.
-dd
RdEoSg
Well-known
according to a high school kid that came in the store the other day, an M2 with lens was bought at a garage sale last month by his friend..... she paid $7
I hate her.
I hate her.