kemal_mumcu
Well-known
The other day I was working with my M2 and marvelling at how such an old thing can still look and work so well. The very computer I'm typing into now is about 2.5 years in my hand and I doubt that it'll still be in use 2 years from now. I wonder what percentage of first generation Leicas (M3, M2 and M4) are still in regular use today? By regular use I mean they see at least a roll or two of film every year. Not some brass and glass statue that is sitting away in some drawer or behind glass.
5%??
Which begs the next question: what's happened to the rest of them? With the high level of reliability and longevity these things are capable of I can't imagine many have been tossed into the garbage bin. Are they all sitting in dusty attics and in vaults?
My M2 was from a Feb' 62 batch. If retirement comes at 65 my M2 is good for another 19 years I reckon!
5%??
Which begs the next question: what's happened to the rest of them? With the high level of reliability and longevity these things are capable of I can't imagine many have been tossed into the garbage bin. Are they all sitting in dusty attics and in vaults?
My M2 was from a Feb' 62 batch. If retirement comes at 65 my M2 is good for another 19 years I reckon!
user237428934
User deletion pending
Yes. Sitting in the attic, used as doorstops or whatever. Is this bad? The vast majority of photographers just don't want to use cameras without any comfort function (eg. a meter) anymore.
Let's try and compare it with a computer:
M8 = computer
M6 = typewriter
M2 = pencil
I have a pencil of my grandfather in my desk. Must be 60 years old now. If i sharpend it I am shure it would still work. And it even will in 20 years.
Let's try and compare it with a computer:
M8 = computer
M6 = typewriter
M2 = pencil
I have a pencil of my grandfather in my desk. Must be 60 years old now. If i sharpend it I am shure it would still work. And it even will in 20 years.
Dralowid
Michael
user237428934
User deletion pending
It's an interesting question I've thought about, too. With the talk a Leica is a camera to last a lifetime and hand down to your children, what percentage of Leicas ARE actually still in use? I don't mean hidden away in vaults or behind glass or on a shelf (they will last forever that way), how many are actually taking pictures? That would be an interesting figure. Five percent seems too low, but I would guess less than 20 percent.
Time Freeze
Established
Well I'm doing my part to bring old Leicas out of retirement. This year I put a iiif and a M2 back into use. Both had been laying around unused for years. They can really put the fun back into taking photos.
rayfoxlee
Raymondo
My late 50's M2 (button rewind and no self timer) was left to a relative of a friend of mine and had lain in a box untouched for about 20 years with the result that the optics - lenses and range finder - were heavily hazed, but otherwise in really lovely condition. I could see the potential, but many non-Leica addicts would not, nor would they be prepared to shell out the £220 for a CLA of lenses and camera. The problem is that unless Leica users pass on their enthusiasm along with their cameras, more will end up as curios in antique shops and paperweights. How sad will that be?
dave lackey
Veteran
Yes, Fred, I would agree with your estimate. Not from a collector's standpoint but from a logical review of the numbers. Not that many on sale at any particular time and the population keeps expanding with an increasing interest from photographers who are tiring of all digital work and/or always wanted to try the Leica experience (like me).
Btw, I would like for us to define "photographers" one day. Surely, our definition does not include just anyone who picks up a Canon/Nikon/name of choice P&S is a photographer for our discussions....just as a classic MG or Rolls Royce is a proper "motorcar", but I hesitate to call my old Toyota Camry (now retired and gone) a "motorcar" in the same sense.
Back OT, there is something reassuring about the increasing interest I see in RF and film photography...Happy New Year, Fred.
Btw, I would like for us to define "photographers" one day. Surely, our definition does not include just anyone who picks up a Canon/Nikon/name of choice P&S is a photographer for our discussions....just as a classic MG or Rolls Royce is a proper "motorcar", but I hesitate to call my old Toyota Camry (now retired and gone) a "motorcar" in the same sense.
Back OT, there is something reassuring about the increasing interest I see in RF and film photography...Happy New Year, Fred.
user237428934
User deletion pending
This is why I love this forum. In no other forum I ever found such extreme opinions. And I don't share your opinion at all.
Of course every single person with a camera (even a P/S) is a photographer. You can't live with the fact that being a photographer is nowadays nothing special, can you?
Graybeard
Longtime IIIf User
Over the years, I've run into a several cameras that had evidently been stored in a damp humid place and were corroded to the point of unusability. One Leicaflex Standard, from Florida, would actually leave a small pile of rust and brass corrosion products on the table when I attempted to cock the shutter.
Other cameras are stored away because the shutter no longer fires and the owner/inheritor is put off the cost of a repair. With eBay, many more of these are available for sale now.
lorriman
Established
Migracer
"MigRacer&amp ;qu ot; AKA Miguel
Low production and high price ensure survival.
Low production and high price ensure survival.
Like all consumables, those product aimed at the well healed buyer always survive in a very high percentage. Weather it be a Piguet watch, Rolls Royce auto, or a Hasselblat or Leica camera, their original buyers can afford to maintain them and never need to sell them. This equates to a higher survival rate and usable examples going on 100 years. The more expensive and exclusive the mass produced products the more that will survive time. In other words, it is a good investment, whether as a collector or a user. At a certain point, if the rare model gets valuable enough perfect replicas will appear as the originals. I have been asked to sign a car I once owned that I knew had been destroyed beyond resurrection, some one recreated it and sold it as the original. Be careful of what you buy!
Low production and high price ensure survival.
Like all consumables, those product aimed at the well healed buyer always survive in a very high percentage. Weather it be a Piguet watch, Rolls Royce auto, or a Hasselblat or Leica camera, their original buyers can afford to maintain them and never need to sell them. This equates to a higher survival rate and usable examples going on 100 years. The more expensive and exclusive the mass produced products the more that will survive time. In other words, it is a good investment, whether as a collector or a user. At a certain point, if the rare model gets valuable enough perfect replicas will appear as the originals. I have been asked to sign a car I once owned that I knew had been destroyed beyond resurrection, some one recreated it and sold it as the original. Be careful of what you buy!
I don't know. I don't see many Rolls Royce's from past years on the streets. Survive, perhaps, but actually be used? I don't know. Leicas are certainly good investments as tools to take photos with; but, I'm not sure buying them as pure investments makes any sense.
Frank Petronio
Well-known
I bet many of them have been cannibalized. All those $300 CLA parts have to come from somewhere. I also think a fair number of M2-M3s have died from prism delamination....
januaryman
"Flim? You want flim?"
I think you're right, Frank. I have an early M2 (early seial number) but with a lever rewind and a self timer. Looks and works great.
vieri
Leica Ambassador
dave lackey
Veteran
Ha Ha! If you only knew me, you would realize that I am the least extreme person on this forum.
As a "now-retired professor" from a local university, it was my duty to challenge the definition of terms that are casually thrown around by my students. A city employee does not deserve the term of "city planner" just because he works in the office and puts reports together. The university has a whole semester of discussions related to what "a planner" is and is not...
So, what about photographers? It really depends on a number of things. I am publishing a book now about child photographers...yes, CHILD photographers in the 2-yearold to 9-year old age group. So, no, I have no problem with your comment about "being a photographer as something special". I have never had such an immature thought about photographers.
Maybe someone should start a lively discussion thread on the definition of photographers. I bet there will be scores of definitions and very little agreement. However, it could be an informative discussion for sure.
But, that is what is so fun about this forum...getting to know each other in a friendly and civil manner, as I learn a lot every day that I visit this forum.
kemal_mumcu
Well-known
Getting back to the original question, what percentage of M2,3,4's actually hit the streets on an even occasional basis? I live out here in the wilds of Asia and I don't see many cameras being used at all, (other than cellphone cameras). (Out here when people approach me while using the M2 they are surprised to see it doesn't have an LCD screen on the back...so much for trying to appear retro.)
Would it be safe to say that maybe 25% have bit the dust, 15% get used to some degree or another, 55% are stored servicable/unservicable and the last 5% are in the collection of Tom A?
What's your guess?
Would it be safe to say that maybe 25% have bit the dust, 15% get used to some degree or another, 55% are stored servicable/unservicable and the last 5% are in the collection of Tom A?
What's your guess?
giellaleafapmu
Well-known
I think the comparison with the computers is not completely correct. Most computers are no longer used only because someone have decided we NEED a new computer every couple of years, not because we really do. Any Damn Small, Feather or whatever light Linux distribution is a perfect proof that, if we wanted, we could easily use computers for what most of us use them much longer than the 3/4 years of average use we have now.
Film cameras such as Leicas were mature products with so little space for improvement (I speak of improvement of the quality of the picture not gizmos) that they could last for ages.
Digital cameras are now young products which improve incredibly every year. The same money which bought 4 MPixel a few years ago buy now easily 15MPixel. In the future I do not think the improvement will be so noticeable anymore (who care to change a 25MPixel camera for a 35MPixel one? Or a 50MPixel for a 70Mpixel if we will reach that point...) and they could never become obsolete in the way computers did because we will always want to be able to access all of our pictures, also the very old one, so also old formats must be supported forever. So I think that eventually, despite the fact that there will always be a great offer of "new cameras" we will have again a lot of product which will be used for very long...if we want to. The quality of good cameras is still very high as it was at the time of Leica. For istance, Nikon claims 300,000 cicles of life with no maintenance for their D3 shutter and the same camera sports a water proof metal body. Circuitery is also very likely to last for ages if there are still perfect FA's around... The same I guess is true for other brands... I have a pro friend who is using a Olympus E-1 he bought soon after it come to the market as his main body for working and the camera is still doing perfectly despite a load which most amatours would not put on their cameras in 50 years...
Am I too optimistic?
GLF
Film cameras such as Leicas were mature products with so little space for improvement (I speak of improvement of the quality of the picture not gizmos) that they could last for ages.
Digital cameras are now young products which improve incredibly every year. The same money which bought 4 MPixel a few years ago buy now easily 15MPixel. In the future I do not think the improvement will be so noticeable anymore (who care to change a 25MPixel camera for a 35MPixel one? Or a 50MPixel for a 70Mpixel if we will reach that point...) and they could never become obsolete in the way computers did because we will always want to be able to access all of our pictures, also the very old one, so also old formats must be supported forever. So I think that eventually, despite the fact that there will always be a great offer of "new cameras" we will have again a lot of product which will be used for very long...if we want to. The quality of good cameras is still very high as it was at the time of Leica. For istance, Nikon claims 300,000 cicles of life with no maintenance for their D3 shutter and the same camera sports a water proof metal body. Circuitery is also very likely to last for ages if there are still perfect FA's around... The same I guess is true for other brands... I have a pro friend who is using a Olympus E-1 he bought soon after it come to the market as his main body for working and the camera is still doing perfectly despite a load which most amatours would not put on their cameras in 50 years...
Am I too optimistic?
GLF
giellaleafapmu
Well-known
By the way...I started writing and got lost...
Back to the original question abou Leicas...probably few are in use after the original user also for another reason. They might actually last a lifetime and they can be passed to the sons but if the son is not willing to use they will not be used. The fact they are expensive do not help as many people after receiving from their parents are not willing to part from them but still do not use them.
I recently saw this situation with a iiif red dot. A now old lady got from her father, does not know how to use it but does not want to give it a price because is a memory of her father. Already some mold is on the curtains (they still work perfectly but it is only matter of time). The most probable thing is that the camera will die without ever be used again in the drawer of that lady, highly regarded memory but not actually a camera anymore...
GLF
Back to the original question abou Leicas...probably few are in use after the original user also for another reason. They might actually last a lifetime and they can be passed to the sons but if the son is not willing to use they will not be used. The fact they are expensive do not help as many people after receiving from their parents are not willing to part from them but still do not use them.
I recently saw this situation with a iiif red dot. A now old lady got from her father, does not know how to use it but does not want to give it a price because is a memory of her father. Already some mold is on the curtains (they still work perfectly but it is only matter of time). The most probable thing is that the camera will die without ever be used again in the drawer of that lady, highly regarded memory but not actually a camera anymore...
GLF