Leica vs China

[filmtwit]

Apparently Leica is currently in hotwater so to say over vieo that was released earlier today

https:// ***********.com /content/leica-camera-trouble-over-video-china?fbclid=IwAR2Q7_w6iEDoza4e97gjgjS3XXznBR3QcfZIOAsyJ3vB2tjFgINr_4Wc36g

Watch it while you can (the star part of the above is lav ida leica but as one word

 

[farlymac]

https://***********.com/content/leica-camera-trouble-over-video-china


PF

 

[filmtwit]

Take the link, and where you find ******, replace that with "lav ida leica" and then get ride of the spaces. You'll have a link that works.

Bad link, try again.


PF

 

[farlymac]

It's odd, but when I posted my link (as an Edit to my original Post) it does that asterisk thing. But when I use the link in my system memory, it displays and works just fine.


Of course, one could just go to https://***********.com/ and find the article.


Okay, this is just weird. My bookmark works just fine, but links from here don't, they just keep displaying the asterisks. Not good for the Internet if the Chinese can start blocking things all over the place.


PF

 

[mightbenow]

Seems like all the links on here so far are censored? This is what I found doing a Google search:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-ahead-of-tiananmen-anniversary-idUSKCN1RV0JG

https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/19/18508009/leica-china-censored-ad-tiananmen-square-protests-weibo

https://www.dpreview.com/news/15008...rsial-video-showing-tiananmen-square-protests

Looks like news outlets from all over are starting to or already have picked up the story. The video is about some promo that Leica made, but have since said they didn't make, of some photographer taking the picture of the infamous Tiananmen Square photo:

But afaik that photo was taken with a Nikon. 🙂

Here's the video

The video also shows other photographers from other parts of history.

I watched the video, it didn't seem like it was insulting China or making light of the tragedy in Tiananmen Square, but more of a 'thank you' to photographers that put themselves in risky situations so that other people get a better idea of the world around them. Even at the end of the video it says "This film is dedicated to those who lend their eyes to make us see".

It reminds me of that one photo by Kenneth Jarecke during the Gulf War, of American pilots bombed a retreating Iraqi convoy, with his quote "If I don't photograph this, people like my mom will think war is what they see on TV" That photo was also refused by most US media to be published.

 

[filmtwit]

Ya, I noticed it after I originally posted it and had to play with it so people could still use it. IT looks like when "La Vida" is a single word, it causes the scrambling.

Here's teh actual video link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAEUafI_lyI

Not sure how long it will last though

It's odd, but when I posted my link (as an Edit to my original Post) it does that asterisk thing. But when I use the link in my system memory, it displays and works just fine.


Of course, one could just go to https://***********.com/ and find the article.


PF

 

[ForestCap]

You know what, Huawei could be the biggest loser here.

 

[Keith]

Fascinating ... the final few seconds of that video with the tank reflected in the lens really stirred the pot. As was pointed out in the comments below, that image was burned into the world's subconscious a long time ago. That said I'm intrigued that Leica have taken such a risk to offend a country that is a huge part of their market!

I'll make no comment about Chinese politics though because that's not really appropriate here in my opinion.

 

[ptpdprinter]

That said I'm intrigued that Leica have taken such a risk to offend a country that is a huge part of their market!

I am not sure it offends anyone other than the government.

 

[Keith]

I am not sure it offends anyone other than the government.

In a democratic system it probably wouldn't really matter ... but it's not! 🙁

 

[filmtwit]

My understanding is that 5 different photographers took that photo with a verity of equipment

But afaik that photo was taken with a Nikon. 🙂

 

[Larry Cloetta]

<snip>......That said I'm intrigued that Leica have taken such a risk to offend a country that is a huge part of their market!

I'll make no comment about Chinese politics though because that's not really appropriate here in my opinion.

If this helps end the confusion about the links just go over to ***********.com, and follow,the article at the top of the page.

In that article there is a link to the South China Morning Press which contains more of the back story, enough to help flesh the story out a bit more. Here is that link: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/pol...ks-away-promotional-video-depicting-tiananmen

Leica have not taken a risk, they have apparently bent over immediately to the Chinese government, and are more than fine with being censored by the ruling party there. (At least that is how it seems at this point). Google and Apple are fully on board with the Chinese government in its limiting of access to information to the Chinese people, and Leica seems willing to go along as well. This is a far cry from the actions of the family which controlled Leica during WWII which did what it could, at much personal risk, to save Jews from the Nazis.
Yes, China is a big part of their market, so money.

People are continuing to be imprisoned, tortured and die in China for talking publicly about the freedom movement that culminated in the massacre at Tiannamen Square. It is an event that the government has, through intimidation and control of almost all access to information, endeavoured fairly successfully to keep a secret from the Chinese people. The majority of Chinese under the age of thirty do not have any knowledge of “Tiannamen Square”. No one knows the name of the person in front of that tank, or what happened to him, but you can make an educated guess.

I don’t really think I am being “political” for mentioning this, and maybe it can be construed that way if one wishes, but, I don’t mind being somewhat in “solidarity” with Chinese dissidents. The information on Chinese oppression is out there if anyone is interested.

 

[Solinar]

Hmmmm, I watched the video and must say that there were other brands of cameras in use in addition to Leica during those conflict situations.

What's up with showing the actions of an Orwellian single party state in the same context as a lawless ethnic war zone?

 

[Keith]

If this helps end the confusion about the links just go over to ***********.com, and follow,the article at the top of the page.

In that article there is a link to the South China Morning Press which contains more of the back story, enough to help flesh the story out a bit more. Here is that link: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/pol...ks-away-promotional-video-depicting-tiananmen

Leica have not taken a risk, they have apparently bent over immediately to the Chinese government, and are more than fine fine with being censored by the ruling party there. (At least that is how it seems at thi spoint). Google and Apple are fully on board with the Chinese government in its limiting of access to information to the Chinese people, and Leica seems willing to go along as well. This is a far cry from the actions of the family which controlled Leica during WWII which did what it could, at much personal risk, to save Jews from the Nazis.
Yes, China is a big part of their market, so money.

People are continuing to be imprisoned, tortured and die in China for talking publicly about the freedom movement that culminated in the massacre at Tiannamen Square. It is an event that the government has, through intimidation and control of almost all access to information, endeavoured fairly successfully to keep a secret from the Chinese people. The majority of Chinese under the age of thirty do not have any knowledge of “Tiannamen Square”. No one knows the name of the person in front of that tank, or what happened to him, but you can make an educated guess.

I don’t really think I am being “political” for mentioning this, and maybe it can be construed that way if one wishes, but, I don’t mind being somewhat in “solidarity” with Chinese dissidents. The information on Chinese oppression is out there if anyone is interested.

You have said exactly what I wanted to say ... but was reluctant to. 🙂

 

[Archlich]

That said I'm intrigued that Leica have taken such a risk to offend a country that is a huge part of their market!

They would not if they knew better beforehand. It was not them who were under constant (and rapidly tightening) censorship after all.

Since the government has absolute power over every aspects of daily life (through the smartphone and the tank), the best the average joe could hope for is not "freedom", but just anything apolitical, so that they don't get into trouble. They opt for the illusion of material prosperity, which curiously lent to Leica's success in the market.

With the economy taking the down turn and the trade war hitting hard, stability is prized more than ever in the current Chinese psyche. The affluent Leica customers who frequent Sanlitun and Xintiandi have the most to lose in case of social upheaval, so anyone who brings reality (which means trouble) up is to blame. In this case, it's Leica...who got big business to do with Huawei as well, so little surprise that they fixed their "mistake" quite promptly.

 

[PhotoGog]

What is frightening about the question of China and photography is not a Leica promo. It is the infiltration of facial recognition surveillance in the public sphere. Ask any Chinese friends living in a major or second tier city and they will tell you no one jaywalks now. If you do, your phone will ping with a notification showing that the eyes in the sky have tracked your offence, you have been fined and your social credit points deducted - an Orwellian system to be sure.

 

[Archlich]

What is frightening about the question of China and photography is not a Leica promo. It is the infiltration of facial recognition surveillance in the public sphere. Ask any Chinese friends living in a major or second tier city and they will tell you no one jaywalks now. If you do, your phone will ping with a notification showing that the eyes in the sky have tracked your offence, you have been fined and your social credit points deducted - an Orwellian system to be sure.

People still jaywalk, a lot, even in Shanghai. That system hasn't been fully implemented yet - and IMO will never truly be outside the most developed districts.

But you do get facial recognition everywhere else, from the ever present surveillance cameras in every corner of the street to the controlled turnstiles at bullet train stations, where you must have your face and ID card scanned to enter. News pop up occasionally about schools running AI-based facial recognition systems to analyze and grade the kids' performance during class. Vending machines based on similar technology are being introduced in public areas. You just pay with your face.

But in general the average Chinese do not, and could not have cared. Ask one and you'll discover that privacy really is the least concern among the numerous social-economical issues people have to fight through. You're in check anyway, from birth to death.

 

[Larry Cloetta]

You have said exactly what I wanted to say ... but was reluctant to. 🙂

Keith,

I’m just “in a mood.”

Larry

And the new “social credit scores” definitely are Orwellian, maybe even Orwell turned up a notch.
Anyway, at this point I am not sure if Leica originally thought up this ad, as some reports seem to be saying they are denying that. Will be an interesting story. Seems unbelieveable that Leica would not know in advance what China’s response to an ad containing that photo would have been.
It would take a lot of guts for a Western enterprise to stand up to the Chinese government. If Leica won’t, they’ll at least know they have a lot of company in the groveling.

 

[Shac]

Larry - I'm glad you were "in a mood".
David

 

[jarski]

But afaik that photo was taken with a Nikon. 🙂

dont know, but I remember reading there were several photographers documenting same moment, from that hotel balcony(balconies?).