Hi Marc!
I know that you have been researching Leica Wartime production as well as Leica's post war occupation by American forces for years. That era has generated a lot of interest on RFF, especially as it relates to the IIIC K. You will notice quite a few related threads in the Leica Screw Mount forum http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=64.
Many people would be interested to hear your comments, including but not limited to
a) the differences between standard pre war Leica shutters, half race cameras and the IIIC K.
b) sources showing precise production information - if such a thing exists
c) with 3410 grey IIIC's per the Hahne list, the ratio between IIIC and IIICK
d) the various shutter curtain variations, including the dark red K on some shutter curtains
e) mis-matched cameras, such as un marked IIIC K's, grey bodies with black vulcanite, or standard IIIC's with grey vulcanite.
f) military marked cameras not identified in the Leica records
Well, I guess that is enough to get the thread started.
Many Thanks
Stephen
I know that you have been researching Leica Wartime production as well as Leica's post war occupation by American forces for years. That era has generated a lot of interest on RFF, especially as it relates to the IIIC K. You will notice quite a few related threads in the Leica Screw Mount forum http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=64.
Many people would be interested to hear your comments, including but not limited to
a) the differences between standard pre war Leica shutters, half race cameras and the IIIC K.
b) sources showing precise production information - if such a thing exists
c) with 3410 grey IIIC's per the Hahne list, the ratio between IIIC and IIICK
d) the various shutter curtain variations, including the dark red K on some shutter curtains
e) mis-matched cameras, such as un marked IIIC K's, grey bodies with black vulcanite, or standard IIIC's with grey vulcanite.
f) military marked cameras not identified in the Leica records
Well, I guess that is enough to get the thread started.
Many Thanks
Stephen
Marc James Small
Member
Stephen
Just a VERY quick response.
In the winter of 1940/41, the German forces in the north of Norway began to encounter a freezing-up of their Leica and Contax cameras in the icy arctic weather -- all of Norway is close to the sea, so it experiences the oddity of high humidity and very cold weather. (Polar weather is normally very dry.) The two manufacturers pursued two different paths to resolve the problem
Leitz had, through the IIIa, the shutter was carried on pin bearings, a metal pin running into a hole in the shutter crate. To resolve the Norway problem, Leitz started using roller bearings on both sides of the shutter curtain. This solved the problem nicely, and the resulting cameras were called "IIIcK" from the Germna word for roller bearing.
Zeiss Ikon, on the other hand, simply made a special run of Contax II cameras which had almost no lubricants. These were also known as "K" cameras, from the German term "kaltfast" or "cold-protected".
Both systems worked well, though the Contax IIK cameras could not be used in more temperate climes unless they had been properly lubricated.
(Those who have shot guns in cold weather know the need to clean the weapon well and to use very little oil on it before firing; this is less true of bolt-action ordnance than it is for automatics. And that marvel of longevity, the VW air-cooled engine, founded in cold weathers until VW began producing a split bearing for #3 main, normally a ring bearing: that remains available today for the latest 1600 engines and is normally installed, I understand, on Zambonis, albeit I rarely attend hockey games.)
Production figures were readily researched at Wetzlar until 1986, when the change in management from the Leitz family led to a general purging of records for all gear no longer under warranty. Many of the older Leitz employees saved these records from the dumpsters, so much of the data yet survives, but it is scattered, and researchers are slowly reconnecting it by the wearisome process of talking to the families of those who worked at Wetzlar in 1986. Jim Lager and Emil Keller could undoubtedly tell us more, but neither belongs here!
All of the German optical industry suffered after 1942 from a lack of strategic materials such as chrome, rubber, and lubricants. Zeiss, for instance, essentially shifted from lens mounts made of chromed steel to lens mounts made from brushed aluminium by 1941, though the details remained the same , with the threads necessary for steel carried over to the aluminium mounts, aluminium generally requirng coarser threads than does steel. And so we have the various materials used on Leitz camera shutters during the war years and into 1946, and the lack of chrome on most late-war production -- chrome was necessary for the bearing surfaces on those Daimler Benz and BMW and Junkers engines running the Luftwaffe and the Panzer forces and, of course, for the Zeiss periscopes necessary for the U-Boats.
The above is written from memory but I am relatively certain that it is essentially accurate.
More later as time permits, and sorry not to have gotten back to you earlier -- I've been out of town.
Marc
Just a VERY quick response.
In the winter of 1940/41, the German forces in the north of Norway began to encounter a freezing-up of their Leica and Contax cameras in the icy arctic weather -- all of Norway is close to the sea, so it experiences the oddity of high humidity and very cold weather. (Polar weather is normally very dry.) The two manufacturers pursued two different paths to resolve the problem
Leitz had, through the IIIa, the shutter was carried on pin bearings, a metal pin running into a hole in the shutter crate. To resolve the Norway problem, Leitz started using roller bearings on both sides of the shutter curtain. This solved the problem nicely, and the resulting cameras were called "IIIcK" from the Germna word for roller bearing.
Zeiss Ikon, on the other hand, simply made a special run of Contax II cameras which had almost no lubricants. These were also known as "K" cameras, from the German term "kaltfast" or "cold-protected".
Both systems worked well, though the Contax IIK cameras could not be used in more temperate climes unless they had been properly lubricated.
(Those who have shot guns in cold weather know the need to clean the weapon well and to use very little oil on it before firing; this is less true of bolt-action ordnance than it is for automatics. And that marvel of longevity, the VW air-cooled engine, founded in cold weathers until VW began producing a split bearing for #3 main, normally a ring bearing: that remains available today for the latest 1600 engines and is normally installed, I understand, on Zambonis, albeit I rarely attend hockey games.)
Production figures were readily researched at Wetzlar until 1986, when the change in management from the Leitz family led to a general purging of records for all gear no longer under warranty. Many of the older Leitz employees saved these records from the dumpsters, so much of the data yet survives, but it is scattered, and researchers are slowly reconnecting it by the wearisome process of talking to the families of those who worked at Wetzlar in 1986. Jim Lager and Emil Keller could undoubtedly tell us more, but neither belongs here!
All of the German optical industry suffered after 1942 from a lack of strategic materials such as chrome, rubber, and lubricants. Zeiss, for instance, essentially shifted from lens mounts made of chromed steel to lens mounts made from brushed aluminium by 1941, though the details remained the same , with the threads necessary for steel carried over to the aluminium mounts, aluminium generally requirng coarser threads than does steel. And so we have the various materials used on Leitz camera shutters during the war years and into 1946, and the lack of chrome on most late-war production -- chrome was necessary for the bearing surfaces on those Daimler Benz and BMW and Junkers engines running the Luftwaffe and the Panzer forces and, of course, for the Zeiss periscopes necessary for the U-Boats.
The above is written from memory but I am relatively certain that it is essentially accurate.
More later as time permits, and sorry not to have gotten back to you earlier -- I've been out of town.
Marc
jarski
Veteran
interesting information. wonder how can these "K" models be identified today ? only from serial / opening camera and check for details mentioned ?
who ever decided to trash the records 1986 didnt think very far.
who ever decided to trash the records 1986 didnt think very far.
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Marc James Small
Member
The IIIcK cameras are generally marked as such on the top plate. Leitz also was making other cameras with straight pin bearings at the same time.
Marc
Marc
Will be interesting to see where this one ends up.
IIIcK Grey W.H.
late grey W.H. (Wehrmacht Heer) camera with grey leather covering, in fine original condition (special fiducial film points removed), with Summitar 2/5cm no.551864 engraved W.H. (the lens was delivered on Nov.13th, 1940 to Bln.), camera and lens are published in Classic Camera 1997 by Luigi Crescenzi - ex Ansaldi collection
Condition: B-
Year: 1945
Serial no. 391619K
EUR 5000-7000 (Estimate)
EUR 3.000 (Start price)
http://bit.ly/94h6wI
IIIcK Grey W.H.
late grey W.H. (Wehrmacht Heer) camera with grey leather covering, in fine original condition (special fiducial film points removed), with Summitar 2/5cm no.551864 engraved W.H. (the lens was delivered on Nov.13th, 1940 to Bln.), camera and lens are published in Classic Camera 1997 by Luigi Crescenzi - ex Ansaldi collection
Condition: B-
Year: 1945
Serial no. 391619K
EUR 5000-7000 (Estimate)
EUR 3.000 (Start price)
http://bit.ly/94h6wI
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Nice thread this is going to be, pretty sure about that!
Factory converted to a IIIf now. If I understood correctly, either the serial number is from the IIIcK range or all IIIc's produced in 1943 were IIIcK cameras.
Did this camera possibly start out as a IIIcK, and given the fact that is went back to the factory in the 1950s, could it still be a IIIcK? Any other wartime era-related quirks?
Recently I found this 1943 IIIc for sale:
Factory converted to a IIIf now. If I understood correctly, either the serial number is from the IIIcK range or all IIIc's produced in 1943 were IIIcK cameras.
Did this camera possibly start out as a IIIcK, and given the fact that is went back to the factory in the 1950s, could it still be a IIIcK? Any other wartime era-related quirks?
LeicaTom
Watch that step!
Johan,
This is a POSTWAR 1945 issue #394xxx series camera, Normal Leica IIIC ~ ex- US Army PX converted to IIIFBD via Leitz sometime in the early 1950's, not a IIIC K.
I've had several of these, they make really good user cameras, and conversation pieces......
Tom
LeicaTom
Watch that step!
Too bad the fiducial points have been removed, (defaced for civilian postwar use) that's a nice chunk out of the finishing price, the lens is also wrong for the camera (it's too early an issue) and the W.H. engravings don't fly with the 1940 issue.
*normally any German Army Summitars of this era were engraved "HEER" the W.H. engraving did'nt start being used untill the 1943 issued lenses*
Nonetheless this will bring BIG BUCKS due to the W.H. on the top plate, they are currently the most expensive of all the IIIC K Grey series.
Tom
PS: Get back with me on that 1945 US Army camera you just found, we need the serial number to add to the survior list.
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Tom, yes I noticed the anomalies in that camera, which makes the starting bid and estimated value all that more amazing. The US Army cam is a matched set according to Lager, he verified the delivery dates. It's extremely nice -- vulcanite intact, K shutter, all operations are perfect, clear viewfinder. Pretty amazing for a 65 year old. 
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Marc,
can you tell us about the differences in these shutters? Any pictures online that show the difference?
5,500 euros hammer price. I hope the winner bid just on the camera value...
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
This might be as good a time as any to bring up a question about establishing the year of manufacture from the serial number. Take for example the camera that Johan pictures, #394xxx. It falls within a range that my listing shows as 390001 to 397650, made from 1943 to 1946. Johan places it in the 1943 range. That seems reasonable, since its number is close to the beginning of the range. Or we could take the range of IIIc serial numbers issued for that period: 7,650 cameras. Dividing by four (since they were produced over four years) we get about 1,912 IIIcs per year. So if we think they made an equal number each year (I doubt this) then 1943 IIIcs should have serial numbers up to 391912; not high enough to include Johan's camera.
However, I don't think this serial number block goes through to the end of 1946. I think this because the 1946/47 block starts within 1946. So the earlier block must conclude sometime before 1946 was over. But when?
And yes, I know that they didn't make cameras in strict order by number.
If we assume that the 390001-397650 block concluded early in 1946, then we can divide by 3 instead of 4. Now we have 2550 cameras per year. That might be enough to place my earliest IIIc, #392427, in 1943, but still leaves Johan's in 1944.
But then my whole idea of using a serial number is apparently swept aside when Tom finds that Johan's is from 1945, and not 1943 or 1944.
Am I correct in assuming, Tom, that you have more specific serial number info than is found in such places as the Hove Collectors book, or in Rogliatti?
LeicaTom
Watch that step!
But then my whole idea of using a serial number is apparently swept aside when Tom finds that Johan's is from 1945, and not 1943 or 1944.
Am I correct in assuming, Tom, that you have more specific serial number info than is found in such places as the Hove Collectors book, or in Rogliatti?
Yes,I do.....alles will be revealed once our book is published, you can assume nothing during WW2, it's simply a miracle that Leitz even produced and delivered cameras after Stalingrad........
Tom
LeicaTom
Watch that step!
Tom, yes I noticed the anomalies in that camera, which makes the starting bid and estimated value all that more amazing. The US Army cam is a matched set according to Lager, he verified the delivery dates. It's extremely nice -- vulcanite intact, K shutter, all operations are perfect, clear viewfinder. Pretty amazing for a 65 year old.
Sweet deal.......
Enjoy It, put a few rolls through it, don't let it sit around
Tom
LeicaTom
Watch that step!
Removing the fiducial marks is defacing as well.....same as cutting off the SS runes from a Militray typewriter with a wire cutters, same difference and it reflected in the selling price, had the marks STILL been there and also the original lens with that camera, it would have gone way over 8,000 Euros!
Tom
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parsec1
parsec1
Knew a guy a long time ago who had one of the original Leicas from the German Pocket battleship " Admiral Sheer' (Involved in the 'engagement'on 5th November 1940 with HMS Jervis Bay an 'armed merchant cruiser' (sic) escorting Convoy HX84 Halifax NS to Liverpool).For anybody interested its worth researching.
Visiting the US for a couple of months and not knowing where to stash it he hid it in a plastic bag in the kitchen waste bin covered with some old cans etc.
Had a bad accident and ended up in hospital for three months in the States.
His sister thought she had better go clean the house before he returned and........... you can guess the rest.
Visiting the US for a couple of months and not knowing where to stash it he hid it in a plastic bag in the kitchen waste bin covered with some old cans etc.
Had a bad accident and ended up in hospital for three months in the States.
His sister thought she had better go clean the house before he returned and........... you can guess the rest.
Unusual factory upgrade to IIIf with self timer.
LeicaTom
Watch that step!
Unusual factory upgrade to IIIf with self timer.
All those self timer parts are IIIF, shame they did'nt replace the original Grey screws, well the whole shell was replaced on all factory conversions, as IIIF vulcanite was more durable then the postwar mixture, and you needed one less screw to finish the job anyway, so they just threw away the original ones and replaced them with chrome ones.......but what's funny is the factory NEVER made any "Stepper" IIIC into IIIFST's so this is an "outside" working of modifications.
The paint looks like a George Carr job, while the camera matches the 45' IIIC K I owned last year and George was a real funny guy, he more than likely is BEHIND building this one, which would make it a historical piece in itself
~ if you could connect this to George Carr from a 1960's build, it might be worth $500 more there's Carr fans out there who are looking for his cameras. (he stopped doing IIIC K's in the early 1970's) ~ cuz the paint was too glossy, it was dead on colorwise, but he could'nt get the texture right "SEIDENMAT" as was the RLM paint, the old paints died with the Reich, but it's still a neat camera.I wish I could find some IIID timer parts and make my fantasy Gold Plated crocodile or snakeskin covered IIID "Red Curtain" with Eva Braun's "gloverleaf" on it, now that would shake some people up would'nt it?
Write me off the board, I'll see if I can find the original docket for you at least find out when it was originally made, send some pix and the serial number.
Nice converted Sonnar there, made any pictures with it yet?
Tom
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LeicaTom
Watch that step!
Now here personally is the only IIICK/IIIFBD I'd ever want..............
The world famous Theo Kisselbach, received this camera from Leni back in the 1960's, she had bought it at LNYC in 1951 while visiting the states, and she later had it modified at the factory ca. 1954 ~ some of her amazing color shots of the Nuba tribes in Africa were taken with this camera.
This is by no doubt the most famous (and the MOST EXPENSIVE) 1945 Leica IIIC K Grey ever here..........it sold for over $18,000 in 2003
Tom
PS: Yeah, if I ever win the lottery, I'm going after this one to make another sales record LOL!!!!!
The world famous Theo Kisselbach, received this camera from Leni back in the 1960's, she had bought it at LNYC in 1951 while visiting the states, and she later had it modified at the factory ca. 1954 ~ some of her amazing color shots of the Nuba tribes in Africa were taken with this camera.
This is by no doubt the most famous (and the MOST EXPENSIVE) 1945 Leica IIIC K Grey ever here..........it sold for over $18,000 in 2003
Tom
PS: Yeah, if I ever win the lottery, I'm going after this one to make another sales record LOL!!!!!
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LeicaTom
Watch that step!
Unusual factory upgrade to IIIf with self timer.
Write me off the board, I'll send you some information/history on this......
Tom