Bobfrance
Over Exposed
Hi guys,
I don't really embroil myself in the current fad of speculation in what camera companies are planning.
However I came across this statement on the homepage of my local Leica dealer (Stephen Leica, Manchester, UK) and I though it may be of interest given the amount of discussion on the subject.
Apologies if this is old news, it's news to me, but as I said I don't follow these development very closely.
Translation of Leica Solms meeting with
The Leica Camera Forum and points clarified
by Stefan Daniel (Leica Product Manager)
Panasonic Cooperation
The Panasonic cooperation will continue
More compact cameras to come
Leica and Micro FourThirds
Leica is not going to offer MFT cameras
Leica may offer MFT lenses
MFT is and interesting system
Sensor size is a very limiting factor
Leica And The Forum
Leica is not going to run aits own forum on their website
Collaboration is seen as running well and constructive
Positive example is the first L-Camera TV show from the Leica production
Many Lecia employees are reading in this forum regularly, so that important contributions in the forum are reported immediately to the management
The forum provides many contribution to the product development
Stefan Daniel agrees to answer forum questions more often in the future
Leica As Lens Supplier for Other Camera Systems
Patents needed are only swapped inside of the Japanese camera industry
Zeiss lenses are manufactured by Cosina who are seen as Japanese company
That way Zeiss receives the patents, Leica as German company does not
Leica's attempts to come to an agreement failed until now
Reverse engineering is legally too risky
Extending The Product Range
No Leica scanners are planned
The LCD projector range is continued but won't have interchangeable lenses
Maybe the customer service will offer to implement different lenses
R-System
R10 and Alternatives
There will be no digital SLR aka R10
But there will be - and we are working on this - a suitable solution
how to use R lenses digitally
It's very important to us, that owners of R lenses can take pictures
digitally in the near future
This solution will have nothing to do to with the S2
Leica has examined intensively which features and what price tag a R10 had to have
Price would have been 6000 - 7000 Euro and it would have been far behind the competitors
This would have been a solution for the existing customer base
but not for the new customers
Therefore the R system is discontinued, the existing system runs out
There is no due date for the new solution
Indirect notes by Stefan Daniel to 35mm full format
Definitely it's not going to be a SLR
DMR
The reasons for stopping the DMR were
Cooperation with Imacon now Hasselblad ended very abruptly
Sales figures were low (approx. 10% of M8/M8.2)
The DMR firmware will have no updates.
M-System
M9
A LEICA M9 will come
Developing full format is technically very demanding because of the M lenses
We are one step further but still not there where we can announce the camera
M8 Upgrades
No more upgrade are planned
Dealers don't like upgrades as no additional sales are generated
The M8 upgrade constrained Leica M8.2 sales
Used cameras are entry level cameras thus attracting new customers to Leica
This would drop by future upgrade offers
Sensor Supplier
Kodak is prepared to Leica's needs, for example the special size of the S2 sensor
Other manufactures like Sony only offer a fixed range of sensors
Summarits / Entry Level Lenses
Summarits are true Leica lenses
The LEICA ELMAR-M f/3.8 24mm was already an extension of this line
More affordable Leica lenses are to come - perhaps not named Summarit
(reserved for f2.5 lenses)
Summilux 50mm sales are 100% above Summarit sales
Super Wide Lenses
Asked for super wide lenses:
Leica already has a 16mm - Leica can only offer shorter lenses
This is a topic we could work on...
18mm Finder Availability
18mm finder to come in June
The frame precision wasn't sufficient so therefore a rework was necessary
NOCTILUX Availability
NOCTILUX was announced for February
Production turned out to be more complex than assumed
NOCTILUX consists of 8 elements in 5 groups
These groups are first commented, then coated
This process had problems which are solved now
End of June, Beginning of July larger quantities will reach the market
S-System
Pilot lot is in production by now
Everything is on schedule
Price will be on the same level as the top cameras in the digital professional segment - like high end solutions by Hasselblad and Phase One
Body will be below 20,000 Euros
Because of the Leica lens quality and the lacking low-pass filter LEICA S2 can compete with 50MP cameras of the competitors
Target group of the S2 are professional photographers (studio, fashion, automobile)
Total market are about 10,000 cameras per year
Leica is going for at least two digit market share
I don't really embroil myself in the current fad of speculation in what camera companies are planning.
However I came across this statement on the homepage of my local Leica dealer (Stephen Leica, Manchester, UK) and I though it may be of interest given the amount of discussion on the subject.
Apologies if this is old news, it's news to me, but as I said I don't follow these development very closely.
Translation of Leica Solms meeting with
The Leica Camera Forum and points clarified
by Stefan Daniel (Leica Product Manager)
Panasonic Cooperation
The Panasonic cooperation will continue
More compact cameras to come
Leica and Micro FourThirds
Leica is not going to offer MFT cameras
Leica may offer MFT lenses
MFT is and interesting system
Sensor size is a very limiting factor
Leica And The Forum
Leica is not going to run aits own forum on their website
Collaboration is seen as running well and constructive
Positive example is the first L-Camera TV show from the Leica production
Many Lecia employees are reading in this forum regularly, so that important contributions in the forum are reported immediately to the management
The forum provides many contribution to the product development
Stefan Daniel agrees to answer forum questions more often in the future
Leica As Lens Supplier for Other Camera Systems
Patents needed are only swapped inside of the Japanese camera industry
Zeiss lenses are manufactured by Cosina who are seen as Japanese company
That way Zeiss receives the patents, Leica as German company does not
Leica's attempts to come to an agreement failed until now
Reverse engineering is legally too risky
Extending The Product Range
No Leica scanners are planned
The LCD projector range is continued but won't have interchangeable lenses
Maybe the customer service will offer to implement different lenses
R-System
R10 and Alternatives
There will be no digital SLR aka R10
But there will be - and we are working on this - a suitable solution
how to use R lenses digitally
It's very important to us, that owners of R lenses can take pictures
digitally in the near future
This solution will have nothing to do to with the S2
Leica has examined intensively which features and what price tag a R10 had to have
Price would have been 6000 - 7000 Euro and it would have been far behind the competitors
This would have been a solution for the existing customer base
but not for the new customers
Therefore the R system is discontinued, the existing system runs out
There is no due date for the new solution
Indirect notes by Stefan Daniel to 35mm full format
Definitely it's not going to be a SLR
DMR
The reasons for stopping the DMR were
Cooperation with Imacon now Hasselblad ended very abruptly
Sales figures were low (approx. 10% of M8/M8.2)
The DMR firmware will have no updates.
M-System
M9
A LEICA M9 will come
Developing full format is technically very demanding because of the M lenses
We are one step further but still not there where we can announce the camera
M8 Upgrades
No more upgrade are planned
Dealers don't like upgrades as no additional sales are generated
The M8 upgrade constrained Leica M8.2 sales
Used cameras are entry level cameras thus attracting new customers to Leica
This would drop by future upgrade offers
Sensor Supplier
Kodak is prepared to Leica's needs, for example the special size of the S2 sensor
Other manufactures like Sony only offer a fixed range of sensors
Summarits / Entry Level Lenses
Summarits are true Leica lenses
The LEICA ELMAR-M f/3.8 24mm was already an extension of this line
More affordable Leica lenses are to come - perhaps not named Summarit
(reserved for f2.5 lenses)
Summilux 50mm sales are 100% above Summarit sales
Super Wide Lenses
Asked for super wide lenses:
Leica already has a 16mm - Leica can only offer shorter lenses
This is a topic we could work on...
18mm Finder Availability
18mm finder to come in June
The frame precision wasn't sufficient so therefore a rework was necessary
NOCTILUX Availability
NOCTILUX was announced for February
Production turned out to be more complex than assumed
NOCTILUX consists of 8 elements in 5 groups
These groups are first commented, then coated
This process had problems which are solved now
End of June, Beginning of July larger quantities will reach the market
S-System
Pilot lot is in production by now
Everything is on schedule
Price will be on the same level as the top cameras in the digital professional segment - like high end solutions by Hasselblad and Phase One
Body will be below 20,000 Euros
Because of the Leica lens quality and the lacking low-pass filter LEICA S2 can compete with 50MP cameras of the competitors
Target group of the S2 are professional photographers (studio, fashion, automobile)
Total market are about 10,000 cameras per year
Leica is going for at least two digit market share
Michael Markey
Veteran
Allot to take in there , Bob.
But I guess it all means that I will not be able to buy an M8 for 2/6d any time soon.
Thanks for the update.
But I guess it all means that I will not be able to buy an M8 for 2/6d any time soon.
Thanks for the update.
Philippe D.
Cheeeeeese
Indeed.
As Stephens Photo Centre quote, it is a "Translation of Leica Solms meeting with The Leica Camera Forum"which you could find here since June 17th.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Yes- we've putit on LUF for a while aready, but it is good to repeat it here for those that missed it. It is a correct summary of the meeting
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
It might be possible to solve the FF problem with a new sensor and very heavy software correction of the problems introduced by the short sensor to flange distance of the M lenses. Leica desperately, from an economic position, needs to get a FF M on the market soon.
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
I think it's more of a realization by Leica that 4/3's would be a hard market for them to compete in.
Bobfrance
Over Exposed
Shame a leica CL sized rangefinder with some dedicated lenses would be superb.
POINT OF VIEW
Established
Ff M8
Ff M8
Truth be known the FF sensor is way over rated and you think the price is high now. They would defiantly price themselves out of the M market completely. Here is a realistic look at FF.
http://www.popphoto.com/Features/The-Full-Frame-Decision
Ff M8
Truth be known the FF sensor is way over rated and you think the price is high now. They would defiantly price themselves out of the M market completely. Here is a realistic look at FF.
http://www.popphoto.com/Features/The-Full-Frame-Decision
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
But getting into that market through Panasonic might also give them an entry to the Japanese incrowd society of patent sharing, allowing them to sell lenses in Canon, Nikon and Sony MF mount, like Zeiss.
I'd take my loss on the 4/3 market if it meant opening up the lenses market for those mounts.
Richard Marks
Rexel
Well
Im getting very tired of all this speculation and no doubt after months of waiting an M9 might materialise for a scary amount of money. there will be waiting lists for new ones and we will be urged to que up for a product that if it is a rigourously lauched as the last one might still be full of holes.
I have had 3 wonderful years with my M8 but just got a D700 a couple of days ago. All my old Nikon primes have come out of the dark place they have been in for a number of years and I have to say its one hell of a camera. I am using it manual focus, no auto hocus pocus, just spot meter and its a refreshing change. If I can get a good split image focusing screen Im happy. This shot with my old trusty 50 1.4 a very inexpensive lens.
Im getting very tired of all this speculation and no doubt after months of waiting an M9 might materialise for a scary amount of money. there will be waiting lists for new ones and we will be urged to que up for a product that if it is a rigourously lauched as the last one might still be full of holes.
I have had 3 wonderful years with my M8 but just got a D700 a couple of days ago. All my old Nikon primes have come out of the dark place they have been in for a number of years and I have to say its one hell of a camera. I am using it manual focus, no auto hocus pocus, just spot meter and its a refreshing change. If I can get a good split image focusing screen Im happy. This shot with my old trusty 50 1.4 a very inexpensive lens.
dpap
Member
why can't the produce an updated version of the M8, with still a 1.3 sensor but one that is more up to date, and has better high iso performance? That should not be that expensive to develop, no?
TJV
Well-known
Actually, this is exactly what I imagine they'll do if they can't "solve the full frame problem" fast enough to keep the line alive.
I can live with the 1.3x crop as long as other small bugs are fixed and the high ISO performance is considerably improved - why else pay more for a newer product?
Please, Leica, weather seal the body! I know the lenses aren't sealed but the body needs to be. Fix the edge of frame point light source banding. Keep the M8.2 body and shutter. Improve the buffer and perhaps frame rate, get 1250 ISO looking like the current 640 or better, and I'll buy another M digital regardless of 1.3 or full frame.
larmarv916
Well-known
While it's nice that someone posted the "info" it has been out for almost a month! The L Camera site posted the info first. Which only makes sense. But the greater issue is that the corporate culture of Leica is such that just no longer can stay in touch..that now it is crazy.
The idea of making an adapter for R lenses to fit Canon or Nikon DSLR bodies was floated inside the company over 2 years ago! When the new owner took over all that happened is that funding supported a flawed business model.
I still shoot with M3, M5 and M6TTL...digital products are really the world of Nikon and other japanese brands. Leica had a chance with the digital back fro the R body...but even that was a generation behind and over priced. That logic was a marketable concept if...it was not so insanly over priced. Ok so now we see the M8 is still 2 generations behind Nikon. For those who shoot film with any M body...it still produces flawless quality day in day out.
Leica and the digital world are growing farther apart every day. Not to mention the price advantage that Nikon or Canon has. As the Yen devalues to all world currency's over the next 48 months the price advantage will become massive...what will Leica do when " D7" suddenly shows up for 1500 USD or 1000 Euro's ?? A Nikon Rangfinder "D" is only a matter of when. In the mean time...I will just keep shooting film and not worry.
All the best...Laurance
The idea of making an adapter for R lenses to fit Canon or Nikon DSLR bodies was floated inside the company over 2 years ago! When the new owner took over all that happened is that funding supported a flawed business model.
I still shoot with M3, M5 and M6TTL...digital products are really the world of Nikon and other japanese brands. Leica had a chance with the digital back fro the R body...but even that was a generation behind and over priced. That logic was a marketable concept if...it was not so insanly over priced. Ok so now we see the M8 is still 2 generations behind Nikon. For those who shoot film with any M body...it still produces flawless quality day in day out.
Leica and the digital world are growing farther apart every day. Not to mention the price advantage that Nikon or Canon has. As the Yen devalues to all world currency's over the next 48 months the price advantage will become massive...what will Leica do when " D7" suddenly shows up for 1500 USD or 1000 Euro's ?? A Nikon Rangfinder "D" is only a matter of when. In the mean time...I will just keep shooting film and not worry.
All the best...Laurance
Pavel+
Established
This makes me very nervous as someone who is only recently in the Leica system. They do not seem to get digital - at all. Film needed Leica and Zeiss level glass. Digital does not. That little humble Panasonic gives me very similar files (actually a bit better) to the M8 but without any issues like the green banding etc. The humble little Panasonic lens is flimsy but decent but the image quality is DXo'd right in the cam and the geometric distortion, color, vignetting etc is fixed - resulting in a stunning level of quality for pennies to the leica dollars.
I guess they think their film strengths will cary the day. They dont' seem to get digital past the point of understanding that it seems to be sinking their ship in some mysterious way.
Secondly, I feel lied to. The word seemed to have been that they would shed the obsolescence fad that rules DSLR's by upgrading. Uh-huh. That doesn't suit them now?
So the only difference now is that when they bring out the new M9, and then the new M10, the old cam will be worth as much less than any other manufacturers old technology. However, their cycles will likely be so far apart that half way through the camera's IQ will be passed prime.
Are Leica supporters ( which I am one of) ready for a new cam every five years? Costing say $7,500 and becoming worth $1,800 when a new model is announced?
That is playing the Japanese manufacturers game. It is like sending a ballerina to a rugby match!
Leica needs to keep the old suggestions of a promise and build a modular system. That will quantifiably differentiate them and continue their reputation as an investment. Fix the reliability! They need that as well, to be thought of as a bullet proof camera as technology allows. Not rugged to the level of last years Canon Rebel.
The S system body at $20,000. I guess that is not so out of scale - right now. However the same challenge is pressent. It MUST be modular! If not they will have a user base who within three years feels stuck and trapped in yesterdays uncompetitive technology with no way to go. Have they got a clue about how prices are plummeting even in the MF world? I can now get a back for about $8,000. What about when in two years there are 28 megapixel backs for $4000?
And what is this part about their advantage with no filter in front of the sensor. THey tell us that this makes up for the megapixel deficit. Huh? Can someone send Leica an email - explain that the other MF backs don't have this in front neither.
I elect Jaapv as chairman and about ten more of the folks here to the rest of the board. People who seem to love Leica (too much sometimes?) but seem to get the rest of the digital world a bit. (and I don't even agree with everything they say)
The photographers here would straighten out Leica's digital fate really fast. If someone doesn't ..... I feel sad .... for what could be ... and likely won't be.
This gives me much pause.
I guess they think their film strengths will cary the day. They dont' seem to get digital past the point of understanding that it seems to be sinking their ship in some mysterious way.
Secondly, I feel lied to. The word seemed to have been that they would shed the obsolescence fad that rules DSLR's by upgrading. Uh-huh. That doesn't suit them now?
So the only difference now is that when they bring out the new M9, and then the new M10, the old cam will be worth as much less than any other manufacturers old technology. However, their cycles will likely be so far apart that half way through the camera's IQ will be passed prime.
Are Leica supporters ( which I am one of) ready for a new cam every five years? Costing say $7,500 and becoming worth $1,800 when a new model is announced?
That is playing the Japanese manufacturers game. It is like sending a ballerina to a rugby match!
Leica needs to keep the old suggestions of a promise and build a modular system. That will quantifiably differentiate them and continue their reputation as an investment. Fix the reliability! They need that as well, to be thought of as a bullet proof camera as technology allows. Not rugged to the level of last years Canon Rebel.
The S system body at $20,000. I guess that is not so out of scale - right now. However the same challenge is pressent. It MUST be modular! If not they will have a user base who within three years feels stuck and trapped in yesterdays uncompetitive technology with no way to go. Have they got a clue about how prices are plummeting even in the MF world? I can now get a back for about $8,000. What about when in two years there are 28 megapixel backs for $4000?
And what is this part about their advantage with no filter in front of the sensor. THey tell us that this makes up for the megapixel deficit. Huh? Can someone send Leica an email - explain that the other MF backs don't have this in front neither.
I elect Jaapv as chairman and about ten more of the folks here to the rest of the board. People who seem to love Leica (too much sometimes?) but seem to get the rest of the digital world a bit. (and I don't even agree with everything they say
)The photographers here would straighten out Leica's digital fate really fast. If someone doesn't ..... I feel sad .... for what could be ... and likely won't be.
This gives me much pause.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Hmmm This seems heartfelt, but I really must adress a few misconceptions here (and thanks for the kind recommendation, but I really think I would be a flawed CEO )
1. There is no indication that the M8.2 will be discontinued, albeit at a slightly lower price. I know nothing about this, but it seems to me to be a perfect starter model for the M series.
2.The M8 will not suddenly stop to produce superior images just because an newer model hits the market. The ability to appreciate this fact is an essential difference between Leica owners and the average DSLR consumer.
3.It is technically not possible to upgrade an M8 to full format. The only thing Leica could do to that effect would be to replace the hotshoe of an M9 by the one on your current M8.2 -and charge you slightly more than the price of an M9.
4. The S2 is positioned between the current high-Mp 135 DSLRs and the MF backs. The remark about the missing AA filter is aimed at the 135 "upgraders". And the lack of an AA filter is becoming a hallmark of Leica digital cameras too.
5. I suggest you look closely at those Panasonic files. They look very good on an LCD screen, but as soon as you start on them in Photoshop they show up for what they are: overcooked and without defined microcontrast (Not putting them down, but how could they be otherwise, with a small sensor and a simple, electronically corrected lens? It is a miracle they look as good as they do). In print it is even more obvious. The difference in quality between those and the M8 is at least as large as the step from the M8 to the DMR - or from the DMR to the S2, I expect.
)1. There is no indication that the M8.2 will be discontinued, albeit at a slightly lower price. I know nothing about this, but it seems to me to be a perfect starter model for the M series.
2.The M8 will not suddenly stop to produce superior images just because an newer model hits the market. The ability to appreciate this fact is an essential difference between Leica owners and the average DSLR consumer.
3.It is technically not possible to upgrade an M8 to full format. The only thing Leica could do to that effect would be to replace the hotshoe of an M9 by the one on your current M8.2 -and charge you slightly more than the price of an M9.
4. The S2 is positioned between the current high-Mp 135 DSLRs and the MF backs. The remark about the missing AA filter is aimed at the 135 "upgraders". And the lack of an AA filter is becoming a hallmark of Leica digital cameras too.
5. I suggest you look closely at those Panasonic files. They look very good on an LCD screen, but as soon as you start on them in Photoshop they show up for what they are: overcooked and without defined microcontrast (Not putting them down, but how could they be otherwise, with a small sensor and a simple, electronically corrected lens? It is a miracle they look as good as they do). In print it is even more obvious. The difference in quality between those and the M8 is at least as large as the step from the M8 to the DMR - or from the DMR to the S2, I expect.
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jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Rather not - 25 Mp holds up the works - eats memory, both disk and RAM in PP and is utterly superfluous for any practical photographic application, except some esoteric professional work - the same reason one sees but a limited number of Hasselblads around. And if it is one of those CMos sensors - thanks but no thanks. - And still the images churned out by the M8 would not change one bit.
Pavel+
Established
Jaapv ... to continue the discussion:
I did not mean for the current M8's to have what would be an obviously impossible upgrade. I would not hold it against Leica neither if the next model was at a technology point that it was impossible to do. No. But I want Leica to differentiate themselves and play to their traditional strengths. Longevity. Simply put the word out there that we (Leica) understand that while expensive initially, our future products will keep their level of worth and technological prowess, in a way that the electronic giants can't or won't do.
It is a selling point and also an honest way to keep the price justified. See ... I think if I could honestly believe that leica believed in turning obsolescence around ... and was committed to a way that kept the investment alive ... that would be good enough. It would feel that they are committed back to their heritage, and would one day be a tangible benefit to the Leica user base.
I fully agree that the M8 does not stop performing just when a new body comes out. But it seems to be what moves the masses. We need an antidote.
I have looked at the panasonic files ... very carefully. You are right about what you say. However, the spirit of what I am saying has little to do with what some of us see or understand. I simply mean this in term of marketability. The panasonic files are good, very good, until you get that small minority of photographers who have a very keen eye. Most good photographers will find the files fined for most things. So I see how close the sensor is ... at that price point ... quite a threat. Leica should wake up. At least get more busy highlighting the benefits. Lastly, I suspect that the Panasonic sensor is not the weak link ... but rather the $100 dollar lens, which while being shockingly good for the price .... is not of course able to work miracles that high. I wonder how putting leica glass in front of the pani sensor would impact the end result.
The small sensor has as many advantages as disadvantages. Historicaly cameras have been on a slow train towards miniturization. It is slightly ironic that Leica may have been what started the train rolling. Leica's nitche has always been small, light, fast.
Consumers have always gone towards convenience versus the ultimate in the subtle details. That is not going to change - ever. Leica needs new blood. New customers, not people that continually buy used.
The micro four thirds idea is almost as upsetting to the status quo as Leica's 35 mm movie film stock standard was ... all those years ago. I'm worried that m4/3 will BE the new Leica. Leica; wake up!!!! Just show us the direction. You have a loyal base ... but show a sign - that you have other than a "me-too" strategy.
I did not mean for the current M8's to have what would be an obviously impossible upgrade. I would not hold it against Leica neither if the next model was at a technology point that it was impossible to do. No. But I want Leica to differentiate themselves and play to their traditional strengths. Longevity. Simply put the word out there that we (Leica) understand that while expensive initially, our future products will keep their level of worth and technological prowess, in a way that the electronic giants can't or won't do.
It is a selling point and also an honest way to keep the price justified. See ... I think if I could honestly believe that leica believed in turning obsolescence around ... and was committed to a way that kept the investment alive ... that would be good enough. It would feel that they are committed back to their heritage, and would one day be a tangible benefit to the Leica user base.
I fully agree that the M8 does not stop performing just when a new body comes out. But it seems to be what moves the masses. We need an antidote.
I have looked at the panasonic files ... very carefully. You are right about what you say. However, the spirit of what I am saying has little to do with what some of us see or understand. I simply mean this in term of marketability. The panasonic files are good, very good, until you get that small minority of photographers who have a very keen eye. Most good photographers will find the files fined for most things. So I see how close the sensor is ... at that price point ... quite a threat. Leica should wake up. At least get more busy highlighting the benefits. Lastly, I suspect that the Panasonic sensor is not the weak link ... but rather the $100 dollar lens, which while being shockingly good for the price .... is not of course able to work miracles that high. I wonder how putting leica glass in front of the pani sensor would impact the end result.
The small sensor has as many advantages as disadvantages. Historicaly cameras have been on a slow train towards miniturization. It is slightly ironic that Leica may have been what started the train rolling. Leica's nitche has always been small, light, fast.
Consumers have always gone towards convenience versus the ultimate in the subtle details. That is not going to change - ever. Leica needs new blood. New customers, not people that continually buy used.
The micro four thirds idea is almost as upsetting to the status quo as Leica's 35 mm movie film stock standard was ... all those years ago. I'm worried that m4/3 will BE the new Leica. Leica; wake up!!!! Just show us the direction. You have a loyal base ... but show a sign - that you have other than a "me-too" strategy.
victoriapio
Well-known
Pavel+, while time could prove you right, I don't think things are quite as extreme in Leica's transition to digital as you believe. But I agree with you on a few things. First, RELIABILITY. Leica must ensure that anyone who invests in a digital M can be assured it will last for a generation like its film models. My M8 has never given me a lick of trouble and I see no reason to think it ever will. It will be in my camera bag as long as it works or can be repaired.
Second, Leica does not communicate well at all with customers, retailers or the general public. They never have. Yes there are marketing reasons for product secrets but Leica's communications have always been a mystery. So their explanation as to their jump into the MF business is very scary. It could spell doom for them. I am reminded of course that Leica has historically introduced all kinds of very expensive products (SLRS immediately come to mind) that never sell in seemingly signficant numbers to be profitable and they have still managed to stay in business.
Next, quantum leaps in digital image improvement are on the decline, and if someone does not shoot professionally, does one need any better image quality than a perfectly exposed M8 image? I do not know what will happen to Canon or Nikon when the general public realizes they do not need more pixels but I believe this "new model every six month" syndrome will stop. What I guess will happen is that Canikon will eventually settle on professional and consumer cameras - much like they did during the film era. The downturn in the world economy may have accelerated this change.
Modular type approach is agreeable with me too, although Leica is smart enough to price upgrades expensive enough to seriously consider total replacement. An M-8 sensor upgrage (not a bigger sensor) to better pixels /better low light performance appeals to me much more than any of the upgrades Leica has introduced so far because a better sensor could actually produce a better image.
I second the motion that jappv be named CEO of Leica immediately and issue the test M9s to members of his board. Oh, I volunteer to be on the board by the way.
POINTOFVIEW - that popphoto link is rife with errors including the fact that a 200 does NOT magically extend its focal length with a 1.3X sensor or a 4/3 sensor. Also, Leica M8.x does not lack for an ultrawide angle unless the 12mm CV is too narrow for use. That is as wide a rectilinear lens as is available on any DSLR, give or take a millimeter or two.
Second, Leica does not communicate well at all with customers, retailers or the general public. They never have. Yes there are marketing reasons for product secrets but Leica's communications have always been a mystery. So their explanation as to their jump into the MF business is very scary. It could spell doom for them. I am reminded of course that Leica has historically introduced all kinds of very expensive products (SLRS immediately come to mind) that never sell in seemingly signficant numbers to be profitable and they have still managed to stay in business.
Next, quantum leaps in digital image improvement are on the decline, and if someone does not shoot professionally, does one need any better image quality than a perfectly exposed M8 image? I do not know what will happen to Canon or Nikon when the general public realizes they do not need more pixels but I believe this "new model every six month" syndrome will stop. What I guess will happen is that Canikon will eventually settle on professional and consumer cameras - much like they did during the film era. The downturn in the world economy may have accelerated this change.
Modular type approach is agreeable with me too, although Leica is smart enough to price upgrades expensive enough to seriously consider total replacement. An M-8 sensor upgrage (not a bigger sensor) to better pixels /better low light performance appeals to me much more than any of the upgrades Leica has introduced so far because a better sensor could actually produce a better image.
I second the motion that jappv be named CEO of Leica immediately and issue the test M9s to members of his board. Oh, I volunteer to be on the board by the way.
POINTOFVIEW - that popphoto link is rife with errors including the fact that a 200 does NOT magically extend its focal length with a 1.3X sensor or a 4/3 sensor. Also, Leica M8.x does not lack for an ultrawide angle unless the 12mm CV is too narrow for use. That is as wide a rectilinear lens as is available on any DSLR, give or take a millimeter or two.
Pavel+
Established
Hey ... wait a minute. I had to sell the Xeon mac and a kidney to afford the M8! The M9 for the M9 I was planning to sell the brain ... but then found out its not worth much.
Matus
Well-known
As not being a Leica owner or hard core fan (but admirer maybe ) I am wondering - putting all the digital stuff aside - are the M7 and MP the last film M cameras we are going to see?
In other words - is there a need for a major upgrade/development that possibly could yield a new film M camera in the future? What you - Leica film users think - as there anything to improve on the current M film bodies?
) I am wondering - putting all the digital stuff aside - are the M7 and MP the last film M cameras we are going to see?In other words - is there a need for a major upgrade/development that possibly could yield a new film M camera in the future? What you - Leica film users think - as there anything to improve on the current M film bodies?