Leica's M9 and Mini M plan

leicasniper said:
"Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist (or does it?) to figure out this MIGHT include the ability to drop a FF sensor in an M8 body and re-designate it as maybe an M9!"

The problem is that the guy who suggested there might be such an upgrade path in the M8 was almost immediately canned. If a FF in an M8 was even possible, it would mean you could only save the case and RF. Such an upgrade would likely be pretty expensive.
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Yup, expensive is what I'd use to describe that kind of upgrade. The other thing I have to say is that I hope that leica does not do this. While I really love my m8, there are far too many things I've had to do to the body to make it work for me (namely the on off switch I had to put a little door bumper thingy to keep it off of self timer and I recessed the buttons using tape and nail polish)
So personally, I think leica should just redesign the thing...maybe make it a little taller so that it can take a bigger battery, weather seal the bugger nice and good (although mine has been covered in ash, drenched in water without problem, it'd still be nice for it to be sealed)

Anywho, yeah the concept of upgrading the m8 forever and ever and ever sounds good on paper, there's just too many improvements that could be made to it right now...perhaps future models will be more able to accommodate those kinds of upgrades, but not this one.
 
Well - I dont think that the M8 path is a dead end as long as there will be some upgrade. It will not be full frame I am sure, but I hope it could mean just a better sensor that fits in with the electronics that is in it.

Add some custom choices on buttons and other small things, and it would definitely be worth considering.

After getting used to I dont think the cropping is an issue at all - and it has the advantage that lots of defects in optics are left out. My CV 15 is pin sharp all the way into the corners, and I really cannot imagine files sharper than this other than from digital MF.

I believe the M8 will keep up in both money value and value of use for years to come - even though the M9 or whatever will be better...
 
I suspect they will take more advantage of their partnership with Panasonic going forward. One can't exist as a small niche company forever. Sooner or later the shareholders will get greedy, as they always do, and want more return for their money. Few invest for the long term returns. Most want short term results.

I suspect you may see a digital rangefinder cheaper than the M8 but it won't have a Leica badge. Instead you'll see Panasonic selling it with Leica lenses. The new four-thirds-micro format may well help there. It's possible Cosina could make one but there doesn't appear to be any hurry there.

I suspect a digital R series won't appear. It'll never sell in numbers to compete with Canon or Nikon and make it's investment costs back fast enough. They could again use their partnership with Panasonic and have a four-thirds model but I see it as unlikely.

My guess is the suggestion above would be a likely outcome to growing Leica's business. Reduce the M8 retail price and bring a M9 in above it in a couple of years. Fact is, few shops sell rangefinders, let alone Leica rangefinders and that's mostly because of the cost of them.
 
Gabriel M.A. said:
Speaking of facts: when do you suppose --I'm sorry: know-- my M8 will die, due to this "near fatal flaw" of cropped factors?
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Who said anything about dying? I'm talking about the effects created by the polar angles known as the "purple people eater syndrome", which has been talked to death and "solved" by the infamous filter solution from Leica. If THAT is an elegant/proper solution to a problem DOCUMENTED as being created by the lens's angle of attack then German engineering has come to a sad state indeed!
According to far better engineering experts than I am, a FF sensor would PROBABLY resolve that problem. As for "near fatal flaw", I stand by that statement as it almost killed Leica and certainly did seriously heavy damage to their reputation.
 
A popular misconception, Rob. No sensor "solves"IR sensitivity. All are sensitive to IR light. Cameras with a long focus register like SLRs and cameras using exclusively telecentric lenses can have the IR filter in front of the sensor. Otherwise the filter must be either in front of the lens or somewhere inside the lens.
Nothing to do with elegance or flaws, it has to do with the laws of physics.
A larger sensor does NOT solve the problem, on the contrary, it makes it more pronounced.
"It near killed Leica"- well, the M8 pulled the company into the black and they are still selling them as fast as they can build them, despite the expected levelling off in sales. Not bad for a near-kill and a destroyed reputation (???With whom? afaik only on the Internet and even there with a limited number of detractors, not in real life)
 
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(Insert laugh here!) JAAPV, you're right about the IR thing! My bad! However, it still doesn't change the facts that Leica—as outstanding as their lenses are— just like Canon, Nikon and others haven't redesigned many of their lenses to account for digital and/or the crop factors. (Two separate issues, by the way!) I truly believe a FF Leica DRF IF priced within the range of us mere mortals would be a HUGE success, and even if that Leica guy was fired for suggesting an upgrade path, the possibilities are intriguing! 8o)
 
I've kept out of this discussion for a long enough!
I pretty much agree with you word for word. There are many things to improve upon on the current M8. Most are little things, like weather seals and battery capacity / technology. I'd also like to see a manual ISO selector, but that's just me. Get rid of the bottom plate, make it SDHC compatible, change the on / off switch and dampen the shutter cocking sound somehow - that's the real problem, not the shutter itself, it seems. Full frame seems a dream at this stage but in the mean time a modest increase in resolution and better noise characteristics would be great.

Horses for courses I guess...

tmfabian said:
Yup, expensive is what I'd use to describe that kind of upgrade. The other thing I have to say is that I hope that leica does not do this. While I really love my m8, there are far too many things I've had to do to the body to make it work for me (namely the on off switch I had to put a little door bumper thingy to keep it off of self timer and I recessed the buttons using tape and nail polish)
So personally, I think leica should just redesign the thing...maybe make it a little taller so that it can take a bigger battery, weather seal the bugger nice and good (although mine has been covered in ash, drenched in water without problem, it'd still be nice for it to be sealed)

Anywho, yeah the concept of upgrading the m8 forever and ever and ever sounds good on paper, there's just too many improvements that could be made to it right now...perhaps future models will be more able to accommodate those kinds of upgrades, but not this one.
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NOT ONE of Leica's current lenses has been re-designed specifically to accommodate the cropped sensor of the current M8
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You mean made with a smaller coverage to accommodate *no more than* a cropped sensor? I would have thought that was so they'd stay compatible with film cameras - the vast majority of Leica owners are still film shooters, and so M8-only lenses would have a much smaller market.
 
oscroft said:
You mean made with a smaller coverage to accommodate *no more than* a cropped sensor?
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Again, the Leica lenses are legendary, but there are design issues with lenses designed for film vs those specifically designed for digital, and I'm NOT talking about the "crop factor"! There are light reflectivity issues from the sensor array, among other things, that require special coatings, new design considerations, etc. for digital.
Leica's lenses are so far ahead of the competition in many areas I'm not aware this has been an issue SO FAR, and a lens designed for FF film has a decided advantage on a cropped sensor, since it's "sweet spot" covers more of the sensor's area, thus minimizing any design defects. But what happens when you drop that lens on a camera with a FF digital sensor? Both Canon and Nikon have found out to their sorrow that those superb film lenses had serious issues when dropped on a DSLR. Will Leica discover the same when/if it goes FF? Only time will tell for sure, but there are sound reasons why even Hasselblad, Schneider and Rodenstock have digital-specific lens lines! Just my two cents and I may be "full of it", but I don't think so! *o)
 
The M9 has an advanced mechanical 3 way toggle switch, it allows one to select Color, Magenta, or B&W externally with the switch, and without any fussing with menus.
 
Again, the Leica lenses are legendary, but there are design issues with lenses designed for film vs those specifically designed for digital, and I'm NOT talking about the "crop factor"! There are light reflectivity issues from the sensor array, among other things, that require special coatings, new design considerations, etc. for digital
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Fair point, but the new Elmarit lenses aren't anything to do with digital as far as I can see. They are aimed at being relatively low priced and hitting a market point somewhere between existing Leica lenses and Zeiss lenses - Leica are losing a lot of lens sales to Zeiss. And if they're aimed at being cheaper "second string" lenses, they wouldn't be especially designed for digital - "digital" lenses would be for a premium market sector and would probably be more expensive, not less. If Leica are ever going to produce lenses tailored for FF digital, I wouldn't expect to see them until a FF digital body is released.
 
MacDaddy said:
Again, the Leica lenses are legendary, but there are design issues with lenses designed for film vs those specifically designed for digital, and I'm NOT talking about the "crop factor"! There are light reflectivity issues from the sensor array, among other things, that require special coatings, new design considerations, etc. for digital.
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Dear Rob,

What 'special coatings' are you talking about? I'm not arguing: I just had not heard this before.

As for 'new design considerations', the only factor of which I am aware is that the lenses be more telecentric, which in turn makes it more difficult to correct them for colour.

Again, this may be merely my ignorance talking. But I'm hoping to have dinner with Dr. Nasse from Zeiss at photokina, and I'll do my best to pump him on lens design. Incidentally, like Hirofumi Kobayashi, Dr. Nasse is a great admirer of film.

Cheers,

R.
 
leica the train has left

leica the train has left

maybe already too late for leica- watch out for way better and affordable rangefinder systems @ photokina 2008!
 
Roger:
As I've been told by a local Nikon guru, digital lens design has to deal with brighter light reflections bouncing back to the lens from BEHIND IT from off the sensor's micro mirrors (micro lenses?). According to him, the lens design and in some cases a special coating are required to deal with these issues. (He offered no additional details on this, merely stated they had them) I have read several technical articles that allude to this as well. I for one will certainly welcome absolute clarity from the experts YOU have access to!
Rob
 
Old Nikon lenses do fine

Old Nikon lenses do fine

sometimes better than the newer lenses on their ff DSLRs (as well as on Canons, etc. with adapters). Check this site where the reviewer (subjectively) reviews old lens with separate scores for film cameras vs the D2/D3, also rates for IR use:

http://www.naturfotograf.com/lens_surv.html


MacDaddy said:
Again, the Leica lenses are legendary, but there are design issues with lenses designed for film vs those specifically designed for digital, and I'm NOT talking about the "crop factor"! There are light reflectivity issues from the sensor array, among other things, that require special coatings, new design considerations, etc. for digital.
Leica's lenses are so far ahead of the competition in many areas I'm not aware this has been an issue SO FAR, and a lens designed for FF film has a decided advantage on a cropped sensor, since it's "sweet spot" covers more of the sensor's area, thus minimizing any design defects. But what happens when you drop that lens on a camera with a FF digital sensor? Both Canon and Nikon have found out to their sorrow that those superb film lenses had serious issues when dropped on a DSLR. Will Leica discover the same when/if it goes FF? Only time will tell for sure, but there are sound reasons why even Hasselblad, Schneider and Rodenstock have digital-specific lens lines! Just my two cents and I may be "full of it", but I don't think so! *o)
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As I understand it, Austrian Capital Management LLC own Leica.

Granted Andreas Kaufmann is the Managing Director and major share holder in ACM but he is not the owner of Leica.

Subtle difference.

I really hope you're all right about Dr Kaufmanns long term comitment to Leica, however I do think there are some naive people here.

Austrian Capital Management sound very much like a venture capital company to me and as i am sure you know, usually make their money by either

1. Spotting the reasons why a company is failing when the exisitng company owners cannot, making a quick fix and selling for a heafty profit.

2. Breaking up the company and selling off the profitable parts. Sum of the parts being worth more than the whole so to speak.

Regards

SR
 
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