Leicavit and Rapid Winder Differences

[irq506]

This is not really a "versus" thread more of a quest for basic information.

The Rapid winder appeals to me because it will link to the TA grip also, but the Leicavit I know will be of high quality because its ..well a Leica.

I was however pretty dissappointed to see the Leicavit with the MP3 anniversary kit was in fact a belt, which scares me a little in that it may fatigue with prolonged use in adverse weather conditions. I shoot a lot of film and am in bothe hot and cold climates.

I have been offered a Rapid winder and am curious to know whether or not this thing is mechanical or uses a belt. I am also curious to know if 'regular' (non MP3 anniversary kit) Leicavits are belt 'powered' also??

 

[FrankS]

Tom A's rapid winder is guarranteed for life, I believe. You can't beat that! No belt or chain. I've got one on my M6.

edit: Oops! Wrong about the belt.

 

[irq506]

Whats in it? Sprokets? Some type of screw mechanism?
Even though its g'teed for life do you think it would stand up to fast usage on say four out of every ten rolls?

 

[Tom A]

The original Leicavit MP used a chain with a single action clutch. the chain was notorious for stretching and this conbined with the single action clucth made it prone to mis aligned negs (overlaps or you had to pull twice on it for safe advance).
The drive in my Rapidwinder is from a reinforced timing belt and in 20 years of manufacturing I have had two belts fail. One because the user took it apart and tried to fix it and managed to twist it and one that I suspect had a flaw in the reinforcing of the belt. I did look into using a chain when I started the design, but the stretching and the "clatter" from the chain made me look otherwise.
What is interesting is tha Leica, when they started to make the "new" Leicavit (in 2003) borrowed heavily from my design and also from Mr Kobayashi's design of the Bessa Rapidwinder. The internals are directly off mine, beltdrive,one way multiple engagement point clutch and CNC machined housing. The lever lock is a direct copy of the Voigtlander lever.
Leica does use a softer spring in the return action than I do, but I do prefer having the lever come back quickly and with "authority"
Leica gave me one of the Leicavit MP's in 2003 and I took it apart (of course!) and it is a very nice design, but hugely over complicated. Any dirt or dust getting in through the base slot will quite quickly wear out the shaft that holds the lever assembly in place and the multiple sprocket gear for the drive adds unnecessary complexity. It was done to keep the profile the same as the original Leicavit.
I was more concerned with durability and strength as well as the simplest possible design. The more parts you add, the more chances that something will act up!
The Leicavit MP actually uses more parts in the locking mechanism than I do in my entire winder!
I still get the occasional winder from 1987/88 for service and upgrades. As for being heavily used, one of New York Times staff shooters said it best." You have to wear the Rapidwinder in to a specific body, does take a couple of 100 rolls and after 5000+ rolls it gets REALLY smooth" Most problems with the Rapidwinder occurs from it being dropped and the flange bent or dented. So far I haven't had a single one where straight wear has stopped it from functioning. Occasionally, the drive can wear the shaft in the clucth sufficiently to have it "hic-up" but that is a simple fix.
On November 15 it is excactly 20 years since the first Rapidwinder came off the "assembly" line and since then there has been 4000+ made.mainly M4P/M6 and MP but also 360 M2 Rapidwinders and about 100 for IIIF/IIIg's.
In spite of the Digital Tsunami there is still demand for it and that gives me hope for the future of film.

 

[sepiareverb]

Yet another opportunity to thank you Tom for making our shooting that much more enjoyable.
Thanks.

 

[Tom A]

Whats in it? Sprokets? Some type of screw mechanism?
Even though its g'teed for life do you think it would stand up to fast usage on say four out of every ten rolls?

The majority of my customers are professional shooters (Magnum, New York Times and other heavy (still) film users). These are users who do 8-10 rolls/day regularly, day in and day out. Some of my own winders have had multiple 1000's of rolls through them. Once you got yourself attuned to a Leicavit or Rapidwinder you can consistently fire off 2-3frames/sec. Admittedly, after 10 -15 rolls your left hand will start tiring!

 

[BillBingham2]

506,

Let me chime in on this one. I agree with the fact that many of Leica’s creations are wonderfully high quality. I thought the winder from them would be one, but it wasn’t.

When I got my M6 new years ago I got a winder from Leica, thinking the same as you. It’s a Leica, it must be the best. While it was smaller than the MD-11, it was louder than I expected and the shutter release bounced when I tried to shoot shots in short succession. While she took AA batteries, I never really like it.

While I was in Amsterdam in ’99 I saw a rapid winder for the first time and almost purchased it. I liked the idea as I used a Mooly a few times in high school and liked the manual approach. The sales rep said they were no more being made. Money was tight and they wanted about $500 USD back then that I felt it was it was a lot.

I got a T and the Bessa Winder and loved the combo some much the winder never came off from the fist day I got it. About a year and a half ago as I decided to go back to my M bodies I purchased a new RWII directly from Tom and OMG is it smooth. It fits better and uses no energy other than my left hand, it rocks. I loved it so much (I have two M bodies) I purchased another. It was VERY VERY old, one of the early ones and well worn. I sent it back to Tom for fixing and it came back better than I ever imagined.

The quality of Tom’s products is IMHO as good as or better than Leica. He thinks his designs through, where they will be used, how they will be used and how to make sure they do not fail. He builds products to lasts and stands behind them. I wish he would build a few more winders for the S3/SP, I would have to buy one. I think that Toms products are built to the same quality as the M3/M2 were.

I would buy a TA product in a New York Minute before I would buy a Leica, ZI, or Nikon. I research the crap out of stuff and I’ve never have found a manufacturer who thinks through or stands behind their products as well. Tom is da MAN.

B2 (;->

 

[Tom A]

Bill, I am blushing from the praise. This is why i do what I do. I only design and build stuff that I would like myself or precieve a need for myself. Early on I figured out that maybe someone else would like it too.
As for the SP/S3 winders, it is not that easy as it requires that I heavily molest existing backs and bases. Nikon collectors and users are different from Leica. They tend to fondle their stuff and try to keep it pristine. I have not fully given up on the S3?SP winder though. The first two were prototypes and proved that it could be done. IF I would make it again it would be different from the prototypes. There would be an inside cover with teflon coated brass and a different drive with internal springs. It still would require that one drilled holes in the baseplate and did other unspeakable things to the camera though.
I still have to finish one for a friend in Japan. This one is for a Nikon F though, but the priciple is the same (though hacking about on a Nikon F back is less daunting than drilling holes in a Millenium S3 back or a 2005 SP).

 

[irq506]

Ok Lads looks like you convinced me enough.
I am an obsessive street shooter (flickr.com/photos/devtank) and a compulsive documentary photographer, I have also recently convinced 90% of my private clientelle that unless its on a time constraint, to afford me the job on film.
I have demolished four voigtlander bodies since june 2005 form over use, I never bothered with the ZI because they were too expensive for the level of use Id give them, I own an unused R-D1 (a warantee replacement body zero cycles because I know itll fall apart in a month) so I eventually rose to an M6TTL and am awaiting an M7. The M6 is a B&W machine and is an all manual affair, hence the winder, chrome and hard wearing. The M7 has a Motor-M and is for E6 use.
I have always rolled my own film from day one 25 years ago during the summer I had so many projects and was having a major amount of fun with hundreds of donated rolls of slide film of which I have only 130 left, and one tin of 100' Neopan or HP5 originally a month but by the end of the summer every ten days.
I dev as I go, so im not doing the garry here, and I do look at and output as much as I can. Its an obsession and I feel vindicated with the last few images on flickr...
I enjoy the build up to and the moment of capture and the tools as much as I enjoy the images themselves.

Thank you all for your wisdom here.
Joe

 

[peter_n]

Very quickly I brought two TA Rapidwinders on vacation with me here to Ireland and they have been brilliant. I am new to them but they are definitely built to last. I packed mine in my checked luggage - I suppose they could be mistaken for weapons... 😉

 

[irq506]

You brought them to Ireland? Well then the circle is complete, as I am irish born and bred now living in Seattle!

Very quickly I brought two TA Rapidwinders on vacation with me here to Ireland and they have been brilliant. I am new to them but they are definitely built to last. I packed mine in my checked luggage - I suppose they could be mistaken for weapons... 😉

 

[peter_n]

Yes well now regrettably I'm back 🙁 and I've learned a couple of things: If you are travelling with the winder you need to think ahead to take it off the cameras a day or two before you leave so you can stow it in your checked luggage. Also if you use it with Tom's Rapidgrip (as I do) and you have a 15mm lens on the cam you will be taking pictures that include your knuckles unless you are very careful! 😱

 

[dpetrzelka]

This may be obvious to many- but how do the Tom A Rapidwinder and Leicavit work?

 

[topoxforddoc]

They are manual winders built into the baseplate. You use your left hand to pull a fold-out trigger that comes out of the winder. This winds on the film instead of you using the normal film advance lever. It allows you to fire 2-3 frames per minute on a M body.

I use Tom's Rapidwinders too (a classic for my M6TTL and one on my M2) - they're just the ticket.

Charlie

 

[peter_n]

That's 2-3 frames per second BTW. And that's if you practice. 🙂 The best thing about it is that you needn't take your eye from the VF as you rewind.

 

[kevin m]

What I miss most about my departed Hexar RF was the auto wind. It was nice to fire off a few frames without taking my eye from the finder. Is it possible, with practice, to use the Rapidwinder (or Leicavit) smoothly enough that it's as smooth as a motor wind? 😕

 

[peter_n]

One of mine is used and one brand new. The used one is much smoother and Tom does say that it takes quite a few rolls for them to "wear in". I would think that it is possible to do as you suggest, once again with practice. Personally I'm not that interested in keeping the framing exactly but I am really interested in keeping my eye at the VF.

 

[Tom A]

When you use a L-vit or Rapidwinder you control the function. With the Hexar it advanced, once the exposure was made and in a quiet environment, it was audible. With the trigger winders you can usually "cover up" with a cough the noise of a shutter and wait until it is possible to wind. The other thing is that most people are used to seeing a thumb action and dont connect the action of the left hand with the taking of a picture!
As for flying with Rapidwinders. in 20 years of using them (thats how long I have been making them) and 100 000's of miles of airtravel, I have never been hassled about it. When I put them through security I obviously fold in the lever and dont make an issue of it.

 

[furcafe]

1 side question for you, Tom (which you may have answered somewhere, but not here that I can tell): why is the end of the winding lever so pointed? Was it for ease of manufacture? Weight savings?

. . . As for flying with Rapidwinders. in 20 years of using them (thats how long I have been making them) and 100 000's of miles of airtravel, I have never been hassled about it. When I put them through security I obviously fold in the lever and dont make an issue of it.

 

[furcafe]

I haven't had mine for long enough to get really good w/it, but per peter_n's post, I'm sure it's very possible for someone to get good enough w/the RW or Leicavit where it's about the same speed as the advance on the Hexar RF. You can easily keep your eye on the finder while winding.

However, I could see how it might not work easily for everyone in every situation, e.g., when shooting vertically (especially, if you're like me & used to shooting w/the shutter release side on the bottom).

What I miss most about my departed Hexar RF was the auto wind. It was nice to fire off a few frames without taking my eye from the finder. Is it possible, with practice, to use the Rapidwinder (or Leicavit) smoothly enough that it's as smooth as a motor wind? 😕