hexiplex
Well-known
Hello LTM users! Recently I have been pondering buying myself a LTM body and a lens to replace the CL that I recently sold. The CL just didn't feel right for me, awkward loading, strange arrangement of the strap lugs and there was just something about the build that didn't sit well in general. So, enter the LTM alternative, I realize that the film loading is slightly awkward with these cameras as well what with the film lead trimming and all, but at least it will be less awkward than with the CL, provided I have the good sense to trim the film before I leave the house.
Anyway, for the body I think I am leaning towards a IIIf or a IIIc "Sharkskin" as there are examples of both on KEH.com for a reasonable sum. But I am sadly uneducated in these cameras and as far as I understand the only difference between the IIIf and the IIIc is that the IIIc lacks sync outlets. Are there more differences between the two? And perhaps more importantly, are there more inexpensive variants of the LTM cameras out there, or are the IIIf/IIIc as cheap as it gets?
As for the lens, I noticed that one of the shops here in Stockholm had a little green box stuffed with some LTM related goodies... Amongst these goodies were a Summitar priced at what seemed to me as a ridiculously low 89 USD, it didn't appear to be coated, but the lens was in a pretty good state, a bit cloudy perhaps, but focusing was very smooth and the aperture ring felt distinct as well. At 89 dollars it seems to be a steal, but perhaps it would be wiser to spend those 89 dollars towards a lens in a better condition?
Finally, any advice to a Leica M user who is about to embark into LTM territory?
Anyway, for the body I think I am leaning towards a IIIf or a IIIc "Sharkskin" as there are examples of both on KEH.com for a reasonable sum. But I am sadly uneducated in these cameras and as far as I understand the only difference between the IIIf and the IIIc is that the IIIc lacks sync outlets. Are there more differences between the two? And perhaps more importantly, are there more inexpensive variants of the LTM cameras out there, or are the IIIf/IIIc as cheap as it gets?
As for the lens, I noticed that one of the shops here in Stockholm had a little green box stuffed with some LTM related goodies... Amongst these goodies were a Summitar priced at what seemed to me as a ridiculously low 89 USD, it didn't appear to be coated, but the lens was in a pretty good state, a bit cloudy perhaps, but focusing was very smooth and the aperture ring felt distinct as well. At 89 dollars it seems to be a steal, but perhaps it would be wiser to spend those 89 dollars towards a lens in a better condition?
Finally, any advice to a Leica M user who is about to embark into LTM territory?
W
wlewisiii
Guest
Grab that Summitar and run like you know who was chasing you 
Even if it needs haze cleaned out that's still a good price on a really nice lens.
As for the body, I'd go with a IIIf mainly because they're postwar, newer and just fewer variables. It's not likely you'll use flash with it, but it's always nice to have the option. The other one to look for is a Canon IVSb body - just like the Leica but with some viewfinder improvements. They can usually be found reasonably priced as well.
I used to have a CL as well but sold it rather than get the meter worked on. I've been very happy with my IIIf & Summitar and will heartily recommend it.
William
Even if it needs haze cleaned out that's still a good price on a really nice lens. As for the body, I'd go with a IIIf mainly because they're postwar, newer and just fewer variables. It's not likely you'll use flash with it, but it's always nice to have the option. The other one to look for is a Canon IVSb body - just like the Leica but with some viewfinder improvements. They can usually be found reasonably priced as well.
I used to have a CL as well but sold it rather than get the meter worked on. I've been very happy with my IIIf & Summitar and will heartily recommend it.
William
ChipMcD
Well-known
There are far more expert LTM posters on this forum than I, but I know a little bit. The IIIc has a different shutter mechanism from the IIIf "red dial" (i.e. with red numbers for the flash contact settings). Early "black dial" IIIfs (until 1954?) have the same shutter mechanism as the IIIc. Supposedly the "red dial" mechanism is more robust. Both have different shutter speeds than modern cameras. I believe Leica introduced modern speeds with the M3 and the IIIf.
I have a IIIc, and both a black dial and a red dial IIf, and all three work very well. The IIf is a slightly less expensive alternative to the IIIf, but lacks the slower shutter speeds (below 1/30). I find this a non-issue because Leicas are not tripod cameras, and hand holding speeds below 1/30 is not too practical.
Like most older Leitz lenses, the glass used for the Summitar was very soft, and often displays "cleaning marks," which is polite language for scratches. Look very hard at these lenses for these scratches, fungus and stiff operation. You get what you pay for. I found a very clean Elmar f2.8 and a very clean Summitar, but you need to be patient.
The LTM Leicas are a pain to load until you get the drill down. I love their smaller size, which together with collapsible lenses makes them very pocketable. They are slower to operate than the M series, but I have not found this to be a problem. The lenses are not up to modern Leica lenses, but are still very good, much less expensive and have a "character" that is hard to describe.
Have fun.
I have a IIIc, and both a black dial and a red dial IIf, and all three work very well. The IIf is a slightly less expensive alternative to the IIIf, but lacks the slower shutter speeds (below 1/30). I find this a non-issue because Leicas are not tripod cameras, and hand holding speeds below 1/30 is not too practical.
Like most older Leitz lenses, the glass used for the Summitar was very soft, and often displays "cleaning marks," which is polite language for scratches. Look very hard at these lenses for these scratches, fungus and stiff operation. You get what you pay for. I found a very clean Elmar f2.8 and a very clean Summitar, but you need to be patient.
The LTM Leicas are a pain to load until you get the drill down. I love their smaller size, which together with collapsible lenses makes them very pocketable. They are slower to operate than the M series, but I have not found this to be a problem. The lenses are not up to modern Leica lenses, but are still very good, much less expensive and have a "character" that is hard to describe.
Have fun.
Bingley
Veteran
The IIIc was made pretty much throughout the 1940s, and included improvements in construction and the shutter over earlier Leicas. There's not much difference between the IIIc and a black-dial IIIf other than the flash synch in the latter. My IIIc is from 1949, and is a thing of beauty. As between a IIIc and a IIIf bd, I'd base selection on sample quality and price. The red dial IIIf has further shutter improvements which it shares w/ the IIIg; it's more expensive, but still costs less than most Leica M cameras. I'd love to get one someday, but I doubt I'd gain anything in performance over the IIIc I have now.
hexiplex
Well-known
Thanks for the replies and clarifications in regards to the differences between the IIIc/f!
I swinged by the shop that had the Summitar today and it turns out the price was low for a reason, some little bolt that prevents the lens barrel from being detached from the mounting plate when focusing was missing and replacing the bolt would be quite expensive due to some ding in the mounting plate... So no bargain Summitar for me. Looks like I will be using my Cosina Voightlander 21 on the LTM body I end up with until I can afford a nice 50.
The plans for purchasing a body still remain, and I have scouted out a nice IIIf Red Dial on Ffordes, it is described as being "delayed action" and I suppose that means that it has an optional self timer and not that the self timer will always be engaged?
I swinged by the shop that had the Summitar today and it turns out the price was low for a reason, some little bolt that prevents the lens barrel from being detached from the mounting plate when focusing was missing and replacing the bolt would be quite expensive due to some ding in the mounting plate... So no bargain Summitar for me. Looks like I will be using my Cosina Voightlander 21 on the LTM body I end up with until I can afford a nice 50.
The plans for purchasing a body still remain, and I have scouted out a nice IIIf Red Dial on Ffordes, it is described as being "delayed action" and I suppose that means that it has an optional self timer and not that the self timer will always be engaged?
Livesteamer
Well-known
Remember that Canon and Nikon made lenses for these cameras. Many people like the Canon 50mm f1.4 and f1.8 as a good lens at a good price. Nikon is perhaps a little better but more expensive. My favorite is the 50mm f3.5 Elmar. Very small but wonderful. Many here also like the Summitar but with both, look for a clean example. I enjoy using my IIIc. Good Luck. Joe
W
wlewisiii
Guest
If the glass in that Summitar is good, it would still be worth the money to buy it - because you can find Summitar's with bad glass but good mounts quite easily. It might still be possible to put together two inexpensive lenses to create one good lens.
Other things to read about LTM cameras & lenses. The last is specific to the IIIf RDST.
http://www.cameraquest.com/ltmcam.htm
http://www.cameraquest.com/ltmlens.htm
http://www.cameraquest.com/3frdst.htm
William
Other things to read about LTM cameras & lenses. The last is specific to the IIIf RDST.
http://www.cameraquest.com/ltmcam.htm
http://www.cameraquest.com/ltmlens.htm
http://www.cameraquest.com/3frdst.htm
William
Bingley
Veteran
+1 on the idea of an Elmar 50/3.5 for this camera. These often cost less than other Leitz lenses (a lot of them were produced) and a sample in good condition can be an outstanding all-round lens. It also makes the IIIc/f a very compact camera. The Summitar is also a lovely lens but even a good one will be pretty soft at f2 or 2.8 (you might like that, though).
The Canon lenses mentioned above are both quite good. There's also the CV Skopar 50/2.5, which is small, well built, and sharp (there are a couple of threads w/ photos from this lens over at the Voigtlander forum). It balances very well w/ a Leica III. So you've got quite a few options to choose from in a 50 for a III that won't break the bank.
The Canon lenses mentioned above are both quite good. There's also the CV Skopar 50/2.5, which is small, well built, and sharp (there are a couple of threads w/ photos from this lens over at the Voigtlander forum). It balances very well w/ a Leica III. So you've got quite a few options to choose from in a 50 for a III that won't break the bank.
Dralowid
Michael
Another innocent teetering on the edge of the slippery slope...
Hexiplex, you are warned, BEWARE!!!
It is very difficult to own just one ltm camera...there is always a very good and logical reason to buy another!
Michael
Hexiplex, you are warned, BEWARE!!!
It is very difficult to own just one ltm camera...there is always a very good and logical reason to buy another!
Michael
hexiplex
Well-known
Thanks wiewisii, great reading material for when I have time to put my new course books down. I think I will leave the Summitar alone for now, it was significantly hazier than I had thought and also had some ugly cleaning marks. Will save the 89 dollars and put it towards some film, an Elmar or other nice, inexpensive 50.
Now, on to Ffordes I go to order myself a Leica IIIf!
Now, on to Ffordes I go to order myself a Leica IIIf!
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Livesteamer
Well-known
I might add that one of my favorite lenses on my IIIc is a Russian Jupiter 8 with focusing tab that cost me $25. Find one that's clean and clear and it will probably do well. Joe
W
wlewisiii
Guest
Ok, sounds like one to pass on. If you do find a good one someday, though, grab it. I've got one now and I like it much more than the collapsible Summicron I used to have. That's saying something because I loved that 'cron. Wide open it's almost as soft & wild as a Summar but even at 2.8 it's changing and by 5.6 it's indistinguishable from a Summicron. A wonderful lens with a look for every kind of light.
Enjoy! The Barnacks are a fine & fun photographic path.
William
Enjoy! The Barnacks are a fine & fun photographic path.
William
hexiplex
Well-known
Just grabbed a $70 (including shipping) Jupiter 8 with focusing tab on the bay, it will serve well as a companion to the IIIf until I can afford a Summitar or an Elmar in good condition.
Does anyone have any tips for testing the camera once I receive it? I plan on shooting it very regularly, but some ideas for test shots to test against pinholes and anything else one should look for is appreciated.
hexiplex
Well-known
After ordering the camera late this monday I now have it in my possession. Ffordes provided some excellent service, excellent pricing and a very conservative rating, the camera was rated EX+ and the only signs of use are some small scratches on the top plate (used with Leicameter, most likely) and some brassing on the slow speed dial. They also sent an everready case that wasn't advertised with the camera, very nice, even though I don't think I'll use it much.
Some overall impressions of LTM in general after my first roll and a half:
Loading isn't that complicated as long as you've pre-trimmed the film. Loading is easier than on the Leica CL, slightly slower than the M4-P, but not harder to get the film to engage properly.
Focusing is a treat. I really enjoy the split finder, in sone way it is easier to focus with the LTM than with the M4-P/CL. The high magnification of the focusing window is most welcome, if a bit tricky to align right against your eye, I frequently find myself looking through the wrong finder, but I'll get used to it. I've also experimented briefly with looking through both finders at the same time, seems to work quite well, even if it is a bit confusing at first.
Build quality is simply stunning, I had expected solidity, but boy, this feels better than M2's and M3's I've handled.
I have a single question though... Underneath the speed selector there is a small collar that rotates, red numbers from 0-20, is this for the "T" or "B" settings? So I set the collar on "20" and the shutter stays open for 20 seconds? Also, some tips on testing the camera (besides regular shooting) are still more than welcome. Also, how can I figure out when my camera was made? Is there a serial number database anywhere online?
The obligatory picture evidence:
P.S I can't wait until I can afford some "period" Leica glass for my new camera, the Jupiter might perform well when I get it, but this camera is really screaming at me to buy a Summitar or an Elmar to keep it company D.S
Some overall impressions of LTM in general after my first roll and a half:
Loading isn't that complicated as long as you've pre-trimmed the film. Loading is easier than on the Leica CL, slightly slower than the M4-P, but not harder to get the film to engage properly.
Focusing is a treat. I really enjoy the split finder, in sone way it is easier to focus with the LTM than with the M4-P/CL. The high magnification of the focusing window is most welcome, if a bit tricky to align right against your eye, I frequently find myself looking through the wrong finder, but I'll get used to it. I've also experimented briefly with looking through both finders at the same time, seems to work quite well, even if it is a bit confusing at first.
Build quality is simply stunning, I had expected solidity, but boy, this feels better than M2's and M3's I've handled.
I have a single question though... Underneath the speed selector there is a small collar that rotates, red numbers from 0-20, is this for the "T" or "B" settings? So I set the collar on "20" and the shutter stays open for 20 seconds? Also, some tips on testing the camera (besides regular shooting) are still more than welcome. Also, how can I figure out when my camera was made? Is there a serial number database anywhere online?
The obligatory picture evidence:
P.S I can't wait until I can afford some "period" Leica glass for my new camera, the Jupiter might perform well when I get it, but this camera is really screaming at me to buy a Summitar or an Elmar to keep it company D.S
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W
wlewisiii
Guest
Glad you got a good one.
Those red numbers are what makes it a "red dial" IIIf and represent the amount of delay (in miliseconds IIRC) between pressing the shutter release and the firing the flash. You can set it on 20 and forget about it - that's the setting for electronic flash which is, probably, the only kind you'd use with it.
Until you get a Summitar or Elmar, there are also the Russian collapsible lenses to consider. Look around and $20-30 for an I-22 50/3.5 collapsible is possible and can be very good indeed.
Enjoy the camera - a IIIf is a pure delight as a user camera.
William
Those red numbers are what makes it a "red dial" IIIf and represent the amount of delay (in miliseconds IIRC) between pressing the shutter release and the firing the flash. You can set it on 20 and forget about it - that's the setting for electronic flash which is, probably, the only kind you'd use with it.
Until you get a Summitar or Elmar, there are also the Russian collapsible lenses to consider. Look around and $20-30 for an I-22 50/3.5 collapsible is possible and can be very good indeed.
Enjoy the camera - a IIIf is a pure delight as a user camera.
William
hexiplex
Well-known
Gah! Did I just ruin my IIIf? I think I managed to set the slow speed dial before setting the main dial to 25... All slow shutter speeds now seem to sound the same, even one second gives a firm "slap" instead of a little whirring sound that is common for slow shutter speeds.
John Shriver
Well-known
Nah, there's no required order of setting them. You haven't broken anything.
The slow speed mechanism is it's own source of unreliability, both the gear train in the bottom of the shutter box, and the arm that takes force from the shutter catches on top to the gear train.
The slow speed mechanism is it's own source of unreliability, both the gear train in the bottom of the shutter box, and the arm that takes force from the shutter catches on top to the gear train.
hexiplex
Well-known
Thanks John, it all worked out. I went through all the shutter speeds after my little mishap and now it all seems to be in order.