Lens design "optimizations" -- real or myth?

[Finder]

Well, that is an interesting statement about Alpa. I asume you are talking about the medium-format company, not the older 35mm one. Since Alpa does not make its own optics, I doubt they do any more than buy the model that is sold by the manufacturer. To make changes to a production lens would be too costly.

As far as optimized object distances, why would you optimize something for infinity (accept for astrophotography)? Most photography is done at something less than infinity. I am not sure what "studio distance" means. I have used anything from about a meter to twenty meters in a studio. These distance including infinity are easy to manage in a lens design.

 

[yarinkel]

"Optimized for X" is a marketing word meaning "among all the compromises we had to make, we have cut less a bit less costs on the X aspect".

Everyone working in engineering will know from experience what I mean. 😉

 

[Finder]

Lenses can be "optimized" for certain conditions/tasks and "looks." mostly the lens designer is looking to eliminate as many problems as he can within the limits set on the lens. Those limits could be economics, specific use, format, the lens type, or the "look" (usually a control of abberations and where the lens falls between resolving power and accutance). And usually it is a combination of those factors.

How much it matters to a photographer is a complex question. In optics, you usually get what you pay for. Can a difference be percieved between two lenses with similar specs and a big difference in price? Maybe. Maybe not. Are German Optics "better" than Japanese? Maybe. Maybe not. I find that when superlatives used to describe a particular lens or optical manufacturer, there is some emotional attachment involved. This leads to very subjective opinions even when cloaked in technical jargon. All lenses are a compromise. Get the best you can afford and enjoy them.

 

[visiondr]

Finder, you are absolutely correct.

Also, consider this when looking at a photograph: do you really notice the technical perfection of the image, or are you caught by the emotional? Certainly, a better lens is better to have, all things being equal. But, I am no HCB or Winogrand. Neither of these fellows used anything near what we call state of the art in optics. Then again, given the opportunity, would they have used the best of today? Of course they would.

 

[Pherdinand]

macro lenses are made to be very sharp at close focus.
Also, enlarger lenses are optimized for very close focus, magnifications over 1; while camera lenses are optimized for magnifications less than 1:10 or even 1:20 in many cases. E.g. a 50mm lens could easily be made to focus closer than the usual 80-90 cm (almost 1:16-1:18 magnification), but the image quality (sharpness, light falloff) would be pretty bad.

Lens design is a very complex thing for photographi images. Resolution, rectilinearity and color are all important, making life hard for the designers.

 

[schaubild]

Well, that is an interesting statement about Alpa. I asume you are talking about the medium-format company, not the older 35mm one. Since Alpa does not make its own optics, I doubt they do any more than buy the model that is sold by the manufacturer. To make changes to a production lens would be too costly.

As far as optimized object distances, why would you optimize something for infinity (accept for astrophotography)? Most photography is done at something less than infinity. I am not sure what "studio distance" means. I have used anything from about a meter to twenty meters in a studio. These distance including infinity are easy to manage in a lens design.

Actually Alpa's are used mostly for reportage, landscape and architecture, the adjustment for infinity makes a lot of sense (and difference) for these areas.

It's not like with other MF manufacturers which buy only lenses at Schneider or Rodenstock and mount them in their cameras. (Very strictly selected) lenses for Alpa are mounted by the lens manufacturer in the lens cones and individually adjusted on a collimator. The exclusive lenses (Switar, Helvetar and Alpar) are indeed individually modified by Schneider and Rodenstock.

http://www.alpa.ch/modules/forum/board_entry.php?id=289

 

[Finder]

I would not put too much into the Alpa marketing. First, the lens isn't being adjusted for infinity, the mount is. Second, to do that you would need collimated light. This is not mind shattering, just something Alpa would need to do.

And just because Apla is having there name placed on a lens does not mean it is in anyway different from a regular production model. Naturally, Alpa will claim that (just as Linholf did). But the economics to actually make a different lens is not practical. They may be more selective in that they are using tighter tolerances, but Apla is just taking a production lens. (How much difference in pratical term in the difference between the "best" and "worse" production lens would need to be shown.)

When I was looking for a medium-format camera, I checked Alpa along with other companies like Silvestri, Cambo, and Horseman. The Alpa marketing turned me right off. If I were you I would take it with a grain of salt.

 

[rxmd]

Alpa marketing is the Leica of large format.

 

[Magus]

Post deleted by posters request

 

[schaubild]

As actual user (and consultant for them) I might be a little closer to real facts and insights.
1:1 result/print comparisons with other camera systems tell a fascinating story, which might also be one of the reasons that about half of their clients are professionals.

 

[Finder]

As actual user (and consultant for them) I might be a little closer to real facts and insights.
1:1 result/print comparisons with other camera systems tell a fascinating story, which might also be one of the reasons that about half of their clients are professionals.

As someone worked in the photographic manufacturing industry, I may also know a thing or two as well. Naturally, I am not working for Alpa nor have connections with them. I certainly have no interest in promoting those products.

However, I am finding Alpa claims dubious. To adjust a lens mount to infinity using a collimator is something they would have to do. And is there really any other way to do it? You seem to imply other manufacturers not do that. To claim that half your customers are professionals, does not say anything as expensive specialty cameras are more likely bought by professions than amateurs. I would imaging Linholf, Sinar, and other high-end manufactures have a high percentage of their sales to professionals. To get a lens rebadged by Rodenstock or Schneider is easy - companies like Linholf, Sinar, and Beseler have done it. But to actually change the production model is not. I will have to go online to see these comparisons. I am assuming they are side-by-side comparisons with identical processing.

 

[Finder]

I just went to the Alpa site. I can't find any comparisons. Perhaps you can point to the correct place.

 

[dll927]

Interesting... I had never considered that macro lenses would be formulated to ensure
performance on flat planes, but that makes sense...

That has long been one of the virtues of macro lenses. Or at least it's a virtue when you are doing flat-field work, such as stamps, coins. or documents.

 

[schaubild]

As someone worked in the photographic manufacturing industry, I may also know a thing or two as well. Naturally, I am not working for Alpa nor have connections with them. I certainly have no interest in promoting those products.

However, I am finding Alpa claims dubious. To adjust a lens mount to infinity using a collimator is something they would have to do. And is there really any other way to do it? You seem to imply other manufacturers not do that. To claim that half your customers are professionals, does not say anything as expensive specialty cameras are more likely bought by professions than amateurs. I would imaging Linholf, Sinar, and other high-end manufactures have a high percentage of their sales to professionals. To get a lens rebadged by Rodenstock or Schneider is easy - companies like Linholf, Sinar, and Beseler have done it. But to actually change the production model is not. I will have to go online to see these comparisons. I am assuming they are side-by-side comparisons with identical processing.

Just a few remarks:

I stand by the facts presented, you don't seem to know much about how large format lenses are made and how big the production lots are. This is no industrial production in the sense that everything is done automatically. Assembling, mounting and adjusting the lenses is a manual task, individual modifications are for this kind of manufacturing no problem. We talk about 50 or even smaller quantities of lenses. It is your good right to ignore my facts, but I pointed out to a forum entry made by Schneider. That the manufacturer (which only rebadges??) the lenses explains parts of what is done shouldn't be ignored. Precision is, apart from proper construction, the main factor which influences quality, stating this is not true means not believing in physics (side note: by reading some camera ads one could easily come to the conclusion that some manufacturers of digital cameras have overcome the limitations of physics).

On 12-18-2006 you wrote: "Alpa is conspicuous in professional photography by it absence." I didn't answer then but decided to ignore it as simple bashing. I won't ignore now, please present facts and not the opinion of the day if you have anything to say.

"I just went to the Alpa site. I can't find any comparisons. Perhaps you can point to the correct place."
English is not my native language, but even under these cirumstances I think it's a quite free interpretation of what I have said about comparisons.

It's obvious that you are heavily biased against Alpa (for whatever reasons). I also agree that I'm not completely neutral about this subject. But simply negating what someone says has nothing to do with discussing and leads nowhere, it's a waste of time.
If anyone wants to share thoughts and information about Alpa please feel free to contact me directly.

 

[Finder]

Heavly bias against Alpa?? Why? I am simply examining your claims which I find extraordinary.

Your link simply states that the mount is calibrated to the lens? That would naturally need to be done. This would mean Alpa is the only company does this - Rodenstock does this for Horseman.

I am glad you brought up science. If the Alps badged lens are better then the normal production models from Schnieder and Rodenstock, can you show it? Those lens maker make excellent products, but you are saying they make better ones for your company.

I am not "bashing" Alpa. Excellent camera. Very well made. But you are implying that it is superior to anything else. Why is an Alpa camera with Alpa lenses made by Rodenstock better than, for example, a Horseman 6x9 pro or Silvestri with the same production Rodenstock lens? Here is your chance to show some facts.