Lens dilemma: I need a CV35/1.2 but what second lens ?

[Licorice]

While having a one lens, 35/1.2, for a couple of months with a new experience on R-D1 will definitley be more benefial in mastering it, my point in a 2 lens setup was just to have two options for two general situations in my case. I want to carry the R-D1 with me daily, even when I am at work and therefore I need a smaller lens for which a CV15 fits fine since during commuting and in the lunch break a wide angle of effective 23 mm would be more beneficial for street shots. My 35/1.2 will be used for more private times and more for portraits or detail shots. I'm aware of its size/weight even though I never handled one but most people reports they get used to it very quickly and it was not as much as they feared for. So despite it's size I can carry it everywhere and viewfinder intrusion is also reported to be easy to get used to.

However sometimes a small size lens which happens to be a wide 15 will be most welcome so I am inclined.

Now my concern is vignetting. Which I like sometimes but I should need to get rid of generally. I can do it in PP but if it's too heavy than this PP may be 95% done which I do not wish to do that much. If the lens had a milder vignetting it could be fair so I sometimes could opt to leave the vignetting there even though removing would be more beneficial but not that much.

In this regard CV12 is better I thinjk. With less vignetting. Is is considerably less? And there are mixed reviews between those two lenses contradicting each other but I think 15 is sharper by a split hair and distortion-free but again with a very narrow margin.

12 is wider and cropping a 6 mp image from R-D1 should not be the best. And I want minimal PP as much as possible for such corrective measure.

I am split between an 12 and 15
Can you point me to 12 and 15 CV photographs taken with a R-D1 without vignetting correction applied? And can I use those two without an external finder, I think R-D1's 1:1 VF is OK once one gets used to the FOV coverage (which may take a long time though)

And thank you everybody for all your suggestions and excellent advises. Once I get my camera and start shooting I need to be on the aswering side to pay back my debt to this community.

 

[kuvvy]

Licorice, here's a link to my shots taken with the CV15 on the RD1. The odd one or two have been cropped but some obviously show the effect of the lens vignetting. I don't actually mind it and have never done any correction for it. For what it's worth my choice of lenses for the RD1 are CV15, CV 28/2 Ultron and 50/2 M-Hexanon. Have to say that it's the 28 that gets most use. I also have the smaller CV 28/3.5 color-skopar for when I want to go a tad smaller/lighter.

http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=81526159@N00&q=cv15heliar+epsonrd1&m=text

 

[sevres_babylone]

You might want to look at Sean Reid's tests of various lenses on the R-D1, which were done for Luminous Landscape:

http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/lenses/rd-1-lens.shtml

http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/lenses/fastlensreview.shtml

You might also look at subscribing to his site; there is a link from RFF.

My first two lenses for my Epson were the CV 35 2.5 (M-version) and the Nokton 50mm 1.5. The Nokton is a very good lens, but I got addicted to Sonnars and tended to use both the Zeiss and the older Canon 1.5 50mms much more; then I got addicted to speed and bought the Nokton 50 1.1. But used Nokton 1.5 50mm lenses are priced very nicely these days.

I like the 40 1.4 Nokton very much, but I treat it as a 35mm substitute, and you might want to hold off until you get into focal length duplication like the rest of us 🙂

Wider than 28mm requires external viewfinders, and because of the magnification of the Epson, you need ones other than those which come with the lens. I would find the 12mm too wide. I have the 15mm screwmount, which is tiny. The vignetting is controlled well with the Epson software. I was able to find a CV 25mm ltm at around the same time. The viewfinder for the 25mm is close enough for me to use with the 15mm on the Epson. And you can get by (barely) using the 25mm without an external viewfinder.

That said, I don't use the 15mm or 25mm all that much. I use mostly 35/40 or 50mm.

 

[Licorice]

Is a used Leica 50 /2.0 Summicron good for R-D1 ? Should I be vary of issues like focus shift? The lens serial is given as 332xxxx and I think this is 1984. $750 is the price. Glass is said to be in perfect condition. Does it sound good enough?

 

[LCT]

Is a used Leica 50 /2.0 Summicron good for R-D1 ? Should I be vary of issues like focus shift? The lens serial is given as 332xxxx and I think this is 1984. $750 is the price. Glass is said to be in perfect condition. Does it sound good enough?

Sure it is. Very good lens indeed. And very small as well. I've been using it for 30+ years including 5 years on the R-D1. Sharp at all apertures in the center. Soft in the angles at f/2 but this is less visible with crop cameras. Almost no vignetting. Reasonable contrast. Smooth bokeh. A bit of focus shift is reported at f/4 - f/5.6 but i've never been bothered by that so far. Perfect match with other Leica lenses from the same period like Summicron 35/2 IV, Summicron-C 40/2 or Tele-Elmarit 90/2.8. Same with the Rokkor 28/2.8 for Minolta CLE. I'm lucky enough to have both asph and pre-asph Summiluxes as well but i always use the little Summicron with pleasure on the R-D1.

 

[Licorice]

Thank you both JSU and LCT.
The main driving forces behind my decision to move from DSLR to RF were the convenience of size/portability, use of sharper and faster fixed lenses and more filmlike results togetherwith the joy of MF and limitations that, I believe, bring out more creativity.

Well, R-D1 is quite limiting !
In fact, my target is to get two lenses with effective 28 and 50 on R-D1.
Now that I am for a CV35/1.2 despite its only downside (the size), I was a bit frustrated for the wide angle end since although the 15 is excellent the extend of vignetting is not something I would like to cope with in most pictures. 21 mm lenses are also said to be prone to much vignetting as well.

Since I want the other lens the exact opposite of 35/1.2 considering size, doing the research I end up with other 35 mm lenses. I may well go for a Zeiss 35/2.8 Biogon. 50 mm is interesting with EFL 78 mm for portraits however the best thing would be a wide which I will keep on the R-D1 when I am not having quality time with the 35/1.2 🙂

So I wander around without a definite direction. I may end up with a 15 or 1 50 at some point. Again I think I will use 35 mm. for a couple of months and I may become more knowledgeable and get a clear idea about M lenses.

Anyway, I am a bit surprised not to find more resources online, devoted for M range lenses. There are many but what I am looking is maybe subjective evaluations by some respectful people. I have only come into the one in Luminous Landscape and this forum luckily. I want more, like 35 mm or 50 mm MF lens shootouts, more resouces for the strengths and weaknesses of particular lenses and their comparison etc.

 

[The Meaness]

Whenever I'm enchanted by a certain lens, I always get on flickr, pull up the Epson R-D1 group and search for the lens I'm looking at. Here's a link for the CV 15:

http://www.flickr.com/search/groups/?q=voigtlander%2015mm&w=70778514%40N00&m=pool

As for a wide lens, the 15mm is a great choice (I'm biased because I love mine). It's smaller than many 21mm lenses and relatively inexpensive. The LTM version is very affordable used, and after using my M mount version for a while I can confidently say I could be very happy with the LTM version.

Unfortunately vignetting is going to be an issue on most if not all small wide lenses for the R-D1. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand it has to do with the physical design of the sensor vs. the space between it and the rear element. Since the sensor is porous, the lenses with deep set rear elements strike the corners at a sharp angle. The light makes it down into the pore after banking off the sides.

It would be like shooting a rubber band straight at a trashcan from 20 ft, and hitting the inside of the can. The band would make it in, but the velocity would be drastically reduced. This is what causes the light fall off in the corners.

Thankfully, Epson PhotoRAW (free software!) can easily correct this problem, as someone mentioned earlier.

 

[terrier]

I would recommend the CV 12mm/f5.6 over the 15mm on the R-D1. Much less vignetting and with the R-D1's high ISO performance I don't miss the extra stop.

I use the old (LTM, scale focus) version all the time. Trialled a 15mm for a while but the vignetting was too much.

 

[Licorice]

Well, after reading Sean Reid's report on wide lenses for R-D1, I see now that I need to live with vignetting and correction of it when necessary, if I need any lens wider than nominal 28 mm.

I am now scrutinizing following:
Zeiss 25/2.8 Biogon and CV 28/1.9 Ultron, they are not tiny are they? Anyway they seem exceptional lenses. And ne Ultron CV28/2.0 is any different than the 1.9 version, performance-wise?

A Leica 28 Elmarit (2.8) maybe?

Or I say myself conform to vignetting and consider CV12 vs. CV15
CV12 seems way better for less vignetting and at 18 mm effective is interesting.

It's a shame that 21-24 mm lenses are not good performers for Epson. Well I have seen excellent shots from the worst glass in expert hands, but you know what I am talking about.

My next lens, it will be tiny for sure, preferably fast if 28 mm, if wider, I do not care the f-stop. So this points me to the more useful and sharper FOV 15 vs more dramatic and less vignetting 12 mm.

 

[Licorice]

And OK, I should stop posting for a while now. I will still follow your input and comments for the above. You all are of great help already and I am amazed of your friendliness here. Nobody flamed my erratic comments and ridiculed my frustration unlike some other forums. Thank you for your patience.
Cheers!

 

[LCT]

Ultron CV28/2.0 is any different than the 1.9 version, performance-wise?...

The CV 28/1.9 has less CA, less vignetting and less focus shift reportedly. I have no experience of it though.

It's a shame that 21-24 mm lenses are not good performers for Epson...

The Elmarit-M 21/2.8 asph is excellent on the R-D1. It is an expensive lens though. Same with the Elmarit-M 24/2.8 asph i guess but i have no experience of it.
Now the CV 21/4 is a very good lens indeed. I use it more than the Elmarit because of its smaller size and i can tell you that vignetting is not a serious problem with good raw converters like Capture One, Adobe Camera Raw or Silkypix (pic below w/o cropping). Epson Photolier is not good enough for that. Too much noise in the corners.

 

[back alley]

rd1 = 1.53 crop...

 

[Licorice]

I have considered M8.2 They are USD 3000-3500 used. (Don't want an M8) And I could not justify the price for a cropped and used camera while R-D1 is available at a third and in many ways it is a better cameran than a M8 for me. Where it fails (build quality, difficulties with wide angles, crop factor, low MP resolution, etc) are matters I do not care at all. And M9 is my future target (hopefully).

You are right for the 35/1.4 though. I know the best approach for me is to get the RD1 and Leica lenses for a later Leica body.

Elmarit's are also great, indeed.

 

[Licorice]

Yesterday I did some research for lens sizes and Zeiss 35/1.2 is not as big as I had the impression for reading this forum.
This is probably because I am used to DSLR heft, one of the reasons I buy R-D1 is to go light and small though

ZM 35/1.2 diameter is exactlythe same with the Nikon 10.5 mm fisheye which is the one of the smallest lenses in current Nikon line-up.
For DSLR people it's tiny. It's length is just 1 cm. shy of 28/1.2 I can easily live with that. Great news for me.

I want a very small (and I mean the length) carry all day lens though however the second lens will definitely wait. It's not an easy choise since the ones I happen to like the most are of closer FOV to 35mm. And the fact that I want a relatively fast one does not help with the size either. The one I would liked the most is the Zeiss 25/2.8 Biogon. An Ultron 28/1.9 is impossible to find and it's nearly as long as 35/1.2. All 21 mm lenses seem to vignet much. Some Canon 25 or 28 mm 2.8 lenses are hard to find either.

I could get another 35 mm which should then be very small to accompany the 35/1.2 but I did not find 40/1.4 or 35/1.4 appealing. They are very good but they are not dreamy lenses for me although I am probably to less a photographer for better lenses.

12 and 15, I liked them but have still mixed feelings for the vignetting. If 12's lower vignetting were the 15's I would buy it in a breeze.

So, not for buying, and just for image rendering I generally liked the most:
- CV 35/1.2 Nokton
- ZM 25/2.8 Biogon and 35 Biogon too
- ZM 50/1.5 Sonnar
- CV 50/1.5 Nokton
- Canon 50/1.2
- Leica 35/1.4 Asph.
- Leica 28/2.0
- Leica 50/1.5 Asph.
- and some more exotic ones.

If I could find a Leica 35/1.4 Asph. with pristine glass and mechanics and no focus shift I would jump on it for under 2000

 

[Licorice]

I am now set. Bought following

R-D1: A cropped, cripples, outdated, weird, vignetting, VF misaligning, frame lines tilting, low QC suffering, orphan camera

35/1.2: a beast, VF blocking, RF unfriendly, heavy and fat lens

15/4.5: a slow, weird perspective, vignet champion of a lens

I will set my hands on them only 1 month after since I am overseas now. I am very excited though. The equipment is now very limiting and this was what I needed. I believe creativity is set free in limited situations, and the joy and appreciation of the process is worth it.

Now my only worry is that I need to spend hours trying to convince people who will treat me as a moron, an idiosyncractic fool, that I did good for my purpose. Well, I think I will accept being regarded as a half-wit wanderer, I can not bother to try this hard to express (or explain) myself.🙂

Once day, I would like to get limited by an M9 + 35 summilux though 🙂

Many thanks for all your suggestions. This is a great forum.

 

[Licorice]

The used R-D1 I purchased (thanks to classifieds here) end of July finally completed its journey overseas to its new home, along with 35/1.2 and 15/4.5 and 15D ext. VF, all new and I am truly excited about it.

I thank you all again for helping me into it and here are my first impressions :
- It is much better built than I expected (despite known QC issues), mine is almost as new luckily.
- Shutter sound is eek!
- User button: I will probably use it for "magnification", but then I would like a second one to assign "delete" since otherwise it's a 7 step process through the menu, anyway not a big deal. Later I intend not to use the LCD much often after all.
- 35/1.2 is also very well built, tack sharp with excellent renowned rendition, its not a beast in size for me (coming from DSLR) but heavy indeed.
- 35/1.2 focusing barrel is a too tight, hope it gets a bit loose in time (but not too much), what's your experience?
- 35/1.2 does not intrude that much into the 35 mm framelines as I feared, it did not bother me at all after doing away with the lens hood.
- Did not play yet with the 15 mm, but it looks good 🙂

Now I think whether to get a magnifier with diopter adjustment, or enjoy shooting with both eyes open. And unfortunately Megaperls (now Japan Exposues) MS-MAG 1.3N is no longer available, neither new nor used.

 

[Ezzie]

I started off with a whole host of lenses, since I bought a complete photographers´s kit. At first I used the 28/f1.9 and 50/f2.5, which pretty much ruined any chance of feeling the need to use the 35´s I´ve got. If I´d started with the 35mm I´d have got a 21mm first. Then a 75mm later. As it happens I have a 21mm, a 28mm, two 35mm´s (one of which is the f1.2), a 50mm and a 90mm. Focal lengths in descending order of use: 28, 90, 21, 50, 35. A pity really, since the 35/F1.2 is a very nice piece of work, I´ve just not grown to feel the need for it.

 

[Licorice]

I just love 50 mm FOV so bought the 35 and if I ever have the gut to own an M9/10 later I would be happy to have a 35 ready! The 15v mm is also great as it's a 23 mm on R-D1, and I also love its vignetting which can be removed to a good degree when it's a nuisance.

What I was also lusting are Zeiss lenses: 25/2.8 Biogon and Canon 50/1.5 Sonnar. However those will wait at least a year, I want to take my time with what I have now. 28/1.9 is a great lens indeed.

Today I shoot with R-D1 and I forgot to arm the shutter wth the lever, and once I forgot to remove the lens cap ! DSLR days are gone and I need to get accustomed to RF 🙂 Another thing is that before taking a shot I happen to check things over and had a feeling that I should have missed to do some adjustments etc. forgotting the simplicity to use a RF. Those are quirks left over on me because of use of DSLR which have many settings and menu items and possibilities. It's fun to use the R-D1, I can sense my photography will improve giving more thought to the scene than to the camera settings and all.