Nomad Z
Well-known
I bought a couple of things on eBay yesterday, and have some questions. The things I bought were a Zorki 4 with a black J-8 fitted, and a 1939 Fed 1 with a collapsible lens. The Zorki deal was ending first, and I bid on it partly to get the lens, and as a banker in case I was outbid on the Fed. As it turned out, I got the Fed as well.
My intention is to use the Fed as an occasional shooter. It does not have an opening in the back for setting up lens registration, so am I correct in assuming that both it and the Zorki will have the same registration? In other words, can I use the Zorki as a sort of collimation jig for adjusting lenses to suit the Fed?
Also, is the Fed anything special? You can see photos in the completed listing here...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EARLY-1939-FE...097565?pt=UK_Film_Cameras&hash=item35b244751d
Max speed is 1/500, so I don't think it's a Fed-S, but seems to have the same engraving as a couple of those that I saw in other auctions. It's a bit tatty in places, especially the bezels around the RF windows, and appears to have had a flash sync socket added at some point. Would it be a bad thing to paint it black?
Anything else worth knowing about it that isn't covered in the auction description? Anything in the description that doesn't ring true?
My intention is to use the Fed as an occasional shooter. It does not have an opening in the back for setting up lens registration, so am I correct in assuming that both it and the Zorki will have the same registration? In other words, can I use the Zorki as a sort of collimation jig for adjusting lenses to suit the Fed?
Also, is the Fed anything special? You can see photos in the completed listing here...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EARLY-1939-FE...097565?pt=UK_Film_Cameras&hash=item35b244751d
Max speed is 1/500, so I don't think it's a Fed-S, but seems to have the same engraving as a couple of those that I saw in other auctions. It's a bit tatty in places, especially the bezels around the RF windows, and appears to have had a flash sync socket added at some point. Would it be a bad thing to paint it black?
Anything else worth knowing about it that isn't covered in the auction description? Anything in the description that doesn't ring true?
greyelm
Malcolm
The Fed looks a good buy, you may find some answers here :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FED_(camera)
When you get it run a test film through it and have it CLA'd if required.
When you get it run a test film through it and have it CLA'd if required.
David Hughes
David Hughes
It looks right (type 3 engraving etc) and has been fitted with flash synch. which is not unusual but will poke you in the eye from time to time when used... In your shoes I'd leave it as it is as one that age is fairly rare and worth keeping in it's own right.
It's worth looking at fedka.com and our friend here zorkikat.com for more info and Oleg would be the best person to give it a complete service (if you plan to use it).
Regards, David
It's worth looking at fedka.com and our friend here zorkikat.com for more info and Oleg would be the best person to give it a complete service (if you plan to use it).
Regards, David
Nomad Z
Well-known
Thanks for the comments, folks. I don't use flash - was just mentioning the sync socket because it means the camera isn't original. Regarding CLA, it's advertised as having had a new shutter (not sure what that means, but will assume curtains for now, although I guess mechanicals could have been swapped out), and a CLA. It also says the shutter operation is okay. My guess is that it's already a user and should, in theory, work out of the box (I can hope, right?).
Understood regarding the lens mount. I had thought that the lack of a plug at the back meant that it had been standardised by then, which it had, but not to Leica 28.8mm. Is there any reason that the mount can't be changed to something else? I'm wondering if it would be possible to use an LTM-M adapter, with suitable removal of material around the bayonet features, and the addition of holes for the fixing screws (machining facilities are available). If the mount on my IIIf is similar to that on the FED, I expect I'll need to shim a fair amount to get a machined adapater close to correct registration (about 1mm). One wonders where the rangefinder arm comes into all this (will it be in the right place, or will it need adjusted?).
Understood regarding the lens mount. I had thought that the lack of a plug at the back meant that it had been standardised by then, which it had, but not to Leica 28.8mm. Is there any reason that the mount can't be changed to something else? I'm wondering if it would be possible to use an LTM-M adapter, with suitable removal of material around the bayonet features, and the addition of holes for the fixing screws (machining facilities are available). If the mount on my IIIf is similar to that on the FED, I expect I'll need to shim a fair amount to get a machined adapater close to correct registration (about 1mm). One wonders where the rangefinder arm comes into all this (will it be in the right place, or will it need adjusted?).
Nomad Z
Well-known
Swapping the mount for another isn't destroying it, it's changing a part. As such, the original part can be put back on. I'm not planning on buying any more FSU camera bodies, so it is a case of using this one only with the fitted lens, or this one adapted for my J-12 and soon to arrive J-8. If it turns out that the original mount has a feature in a place where the adapter has nothing (apart from the possible need for a spacer to get the registration in the ballpark), then I will have to think again. If it's simply a case of removing material from the adapter, then, at present, I don't see a problem.
wolves3012
Veteran
The FED will have neither a standard lens register nor a standard Leica thread. I have one of the same age and I'd be inclined to say leave it alone, as standard, since it's relatively rare. CLA might well be needed. Mine's had new curtains and a new half-mirror and is a nice camera to use as it is.
If you really want to make it compatible with other lenses, you can fit the mount from a later FED and re-shim it for 28.8mm flange-to-film distance but you may have difficulty calibrating the RF accurately.
If you really want to make it compatible with other lenses, you can fit the mount from a later FED and re-shim it for 28.8mm flange-to-film distance but you may have difficulty calibrating the RF accurately.
Nomad Z
Well-known
The FED has arrived, and seems to be as described in the advert. Shutter speeds seem convincing and consistent, and the curtains do look to be in excellent condition. The uncoated lens looks clean and clear (some very light scratching on the front element when examined through a lupe). Aperture blades look fine, and the control for them works, if perhaps a tiny bit stiff. Focus helical is also fine, if also a tiny bit stiff. RF patch is certainly bright enough to be usable. The chipped RF glass mentioned in the ad does take some of the RF image away, but there's plenty enough left to focus with.
I ran my fogged test film roll through it, and film advance and rewind is fine, as is the frame counter. I found that the clip on the take-up spool doesn't grip the leader very well - the leader was coming out during loading, and I had to put a fold in the end to double up the film's thickness to make it stay in place. Rewind knob is a bit stiff to raise and lower - took it apart and added some grease, which helped a little.
The threads on the lens mount presented no issue to my J-3 or J-12 - they both screwed down to the flange just fine. However, their focus index marks are well away from top-centre. My turrret finder makes no attempt to grip the accessory shoe - it rattles (but is a good fit in my Leicas). The RF patch alignment is fine at infinity (300m object) with the FED collapsible lens, but both the J-12 and J-3 push the patch too far. The vertical alignment of the patch is out by a fair bit, but should be okay if I use things that are vertical in the finder.
I took the mount off for a look-see, and found one and a half paper shims. The half shim was under the side towards the rewind knob. I considered the possibility of rotating the mount to get the J-n focus indexes in place, and found that some material is removed from the area where the RF lever is. If I elect to rotate it, I'd have to machine similar clearance in the appropriate quadrant. Certainly not making any changes just now - the next step is to put a roll of film through it to check it out in use.
Compared to my Leica IIIf... Similar overall feel and heft in the hand. I can see the difference that is often referred to as 'agricultural' - the FED just isn't as refined. In use, I think the main difference is the feel of the shutter button, which takes more pressure to get it to release (similar to a mate's FED 1f), and the general feel of the shutter when it's traversing. When the shutter fires, I can feel more of a clunk through the camera body, as if there's more weight being shoved around inside. I'd have to take more care with this when hand-holding at 1/20 or 1/30 than I do with the IIIf.
First impressions overall? A hell of a lot of camera for 30 quid. Not as refined as the real thing, but seems to be thoroughly usable, especially when one considers that it's 72 years old. I'm pleased that the claimed CLA and shutter replacement does indeed appear to have been done. I'm also pleased that it fits snug as you like into my Leica never ready case which I never used with the IIIf because it has a 3/8 tripod bush, while the IIIf is 1/4". (This is handy, because the FED has no lens cap.)
A roll of film should tell me if it's all as good as it appears to be - light leaks and focus accuracy alignment at shorter distances will be the main things to look out for.
I ran my fogged test film roll through it, and film advance and rewind is fine, as is the frame counter. I found that the clip on the take-up spool doesn't grip the leader very well - the leader was coming out during loading, and I had to put a fold in the end to double up the film's thickness to make it stay in place. Rewind knob is a bit stiff to raise and lower - took it apart and added some grease, which helped a little.
The threads on the lens mount presented no issue to my J-3 or J-12 - they both screwed down to the flange just fine. However, their focus index marks are well away from top-centre. My turrret finder makes no attempt to grip the accessory shoe - it rattles (but is a good fit in my Leicas). The RF patch alignment is fine at infinity (300m object) with the FED collapsible lens, but both the J-12 and J-3 push the patch too far. The vertical alignment of the patch is out by a fair bit, but should be okay if I use things that are vertical in the finder.
I took the mount off for a look-see, and found one and a half paper shims. The half shim was under the side towards the rewind knob. I considered the possibility of rotating the mount to get the J-n focus indexes in place, and found that some material is removed from the area where the RF lever is. If I elect to rotate it, I'd have to machine similar clearance in the appropriate quadrant. Certainly not making any changes just now - the next step is to put a roll of film through it to check it out in use.
Compared to my Leica IIIf... Similar overall feel and heft in the hand. I can see the difference that is often referred to as 'agricultural' - the FED just isn't as refined. In use, I think the main difference is the feel of the shutter button, which takes more pressure to get it to release (similar to a mate's FED 1f), and the general feel of the shutter when it's traversing. When the shutter fires, I can feel more of a clunk through the camera body, as if there's more weight being shoved around inside. I'd have to take more care with this when hand-holding at 1/20 or 1/30 than I do with the IIIf.
First impressions overall? A hell of a lot of camera for 30 quid. Not as refined as the real thing, but seems to be thoroughly usable, especially when one considers that it's 72 years old. I'm pleased that the claimed CLA and shutter replacement does indeed appear to have been done. I'm also pleased that it fits snug as you like into my Leica never ready case which I never used with the IIIf because it has a 3/8 tripod bush, while the IIIf is 1/4". (This is handy, because the FED has no lens cap.)
A roll of film should tell me if it's all as good as it appears to be - light leaks and focus accuracy alignment at shorter distances will be the main things to look out for.
wolves3012
Veteran
It's possible that someone has already changed the mount if the J-3 and J-12 will thread in properly and the off-centre index marks are nothing unusual. Some of my LTM lenses will thread into my NKVD whilst others won't, so it's partly down to wear and thread machining. You may just be lucky! Chances are the J-3 will be off for focus but the J-12 may well work due to DOF covering the error.
Rotating the mount isn't possible, unless - as you've noticed - you're prepared to mill another flat on it. That would also require a re-shim and be rather tedious.
Sounds like you have a nice camera though...enjoy!
P.S. Unless it's coincidence of names, the seller is an RFF user.
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Nomad Z
Well-known
The only references I've been able to find about thread pitches are 1mm and Leica's 26tpi. Unless early FSU mounts had yet another pitch, then the difference between 1mm and 26tpi is really not very much. Assuming perfect threadforms of metric nut for the mount (internal thread) and Whitworth for the lens, there should be no binding over 4 threads. At 5 threads, there is still a tiny gap of 2.7um. I just tried my 1953 Elmar, and it went on fine as well.
I'll have to take your word that the J-12 is probably usable - I haven't quite got my head around the effect of the differences in having the lens 0.3mm closer, and how its cam interacts with the RF lever. I guess I should measure the distance from the collapsible FED's flange to RF cam, and have a little think. (Having said that, the focus index is so far away, I think I'd find it frustrating to use.)
I'll have to take your word that the J-12 is probably usable - I haven't quite got my head around the effect of the differences in having the lens 0.3mm closer, and how its cam interacts with the RF lever. I guess I should measure the distance from the collapsible FED's flange to RF cam, and have a little think. (Having said that, the focus index is so far away, I think I'd find it frustrating to use.)
Nomad Z
Well-known
The first two rolls of Retro 100 through the FED are hanging up to dry - will be scanning soon. Two things I noticed were tilted frames, due to the spool dropping a little inside the camera (felt pad fix, I guess), and what looks like a light leak that only appears every few frames, and at irregular intervals. Part of one edge is fogged, and there's a 'bar' of fogging running down between frames. I'm assuming this is related to lens changes - should be able to tell when I get a better look.
wolves3012
Veteran
Tilted frames isn't unexpected on these cameras. For one thing, they have no proper guide rails on the crate. As for the fogging, assuming there are no screws missing etc, then a possible cause is failure of the curtains to overlap correctly during winding on. Lens changes shouldn't cause leaks, provided you keep bright light away from the camera-throat during changes. There are no light baffles around the frame, so leaks are possible during lens changes, however.
Nomad Z
Well-known
All screws appear to be present and correct. The thing about the fogging is that it only appears now and then. Just had a look through the images, and it is happening when I change lenses, which leads me to ask... When the lens is off, and you're looking at the curtains, should there be a cover over the rolls of curtain at the sides? In mine, the rolls of fabric are visible, and there's a rotating bar that looks to be made of brass or something.
AK66
Member
I have a Zorki 4K, and I just looked inside and the curtains rolls are covered on both sides..
fanshaw
Well-known
This sounds normal. They didn't use any covers over the curtains in the Fed.
wolves3012
Veteran
As fanshaw says, there are no additional light baffles on most of the FSUs. The Zorki 3 and 4 had them. but no other FED/Zorkis have, IIRC. Just take more care to shield the camera when you change lenses, avoid direct, bright light into the lens mount.