Lets get real

[tlitody]

I phoned a few photographers recently to get their advice on whether something I'm consdering would be viable. I got some (IMO) overly optimistic advice and some very pessimistic advice. I tend to think the pessimistic advice is probably nearer the mark which is why I sounded out a few in the business.
Along the way I had one discussion about the fact that so many photographers resort to trying to make money out of other photographers. i.e. a large number are running photo courses, writing magazine articles, writing books, setting up web forums, publishing photography books, go into teaching at colleges etc etc. I have to conclude that making a living as a photographer must be a very tough business if you have to resort to all these things because you don't have enough actual photography work to keep you busy.

Now I know some will say they want to give back to photography or they want some variety in what they do, but I suspect most just don't have enough work or aren't getting paid enough to live from doing just photography.

So whats your take on this?

 

[back alley]

how does one become an architect or a lawyer or a carpenter?

from others...

 

[gavinlg]

This is my opinion - there are always naysayers and negative attitudes toward people who aim high in whatever it is that they want to do. If you genuinely want to be a professional photographer and can dedicate yourself to it, you'll do well.

Contrary to popular belief around here there are photographers that earn good money and have a successful career. Your attitude is more important than what everyone else says.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Don't assume that people write or teach because they can't get enough photographic work: they may actually prefer it. I've worked in advertising, AV and book illustration, but writing and illustrating my own work is what I like best.

Most journalists get into it by accident. For me, it was a natural confluence of loving writing (from a very early age; first published at 16, first paid at 23); loving photography (amateur from 16, first paid at 25 or so); and being reasonably good at teaching (which I took up by accident just after leaving university, as it allowed me to be with my mother for the last few months of her life).

As for photographers who do only photography, in the very nature of what I do I come into contact with a lot of photographers both successful and unsuccessful. I can think of at least half a dozen groups:

1 The ones who go straight in at the top -- or at least, after no more than a few months' apprenticeship. There are very few of these in a generation.

2 Those who make a living, more or less good, after several years of living on air (the normal route to success in any trade, profession or calling except manual labour).

3 Those who study photography; work at it for a while, often with some success, and then give up. There are plenty of excellent photographers in this group but they want to take pictures, not spend all their time on seling themselves, doing accounts, etc. Tough!

4 Those who study photography; fail to get a job as a photographer (though they may get something tangentially related, like working in a lab or camera store); and do something else all their lives. From my knowledge of photography schools, I'd say this was the biggest group.

5 Those who study something else and decide, "Sod it! I'm ging to be a photographer!" Some succeed; more fail.

6 Those who end up doing it by accident. I have a law degree; I'm a qualified secondary school teacher (the two are substantially unrelated). I also studied chartered accountancy but decided I couldn't face the excitement. I first worked professionally as a photographer in my mid-20s after selling the bulk of my Leica collection to a successful advertising photographer who took me on as an assistant and became my closest friend. He died in 1999. He did well enough out of it to run a Maserati and a Porsche.

Regardless of which route anyone takes, you have to be near-obsessive about photography to succeed at all, whether modestly or greatly. In pursuit of this obsession, you may need to give up more tham most are willing to do. Most successful photographers I have known have at least one failed marriage behind them; quite a few make a habit of it. You also need to live in a BIG city. I'd have had to stay in London to make it as a photographer, and I didn't really fancy the lifestyle. Sometimes I wish I had, but not often. I'd rather live in my good-sized house in rural France than in the tiny flat we considered on the King's Road -- where the service fees were £1000 a year in the 1980s.

Well, you asked for others' takes on the subject...

Cheers,

R.

 

[jordanstarr]

A lot of photographers have to make pretty big compromises to sustain being a full-time photographer by shooting a lot of stuff they don't want to. I could probably start doing wedding photographs full time and get by, but I hate it so much I'd rather lose my sight than do that.

 

[dave lackey]

Geez, an architect with a job is virtually impossible to find in Georgia. Same with civil engineers, land planners, real estate developers, etc. However, the neighborhood Publix supermarket and Kroger both have their top managment guys/gals making $120-$150/year and assistant managers making far more than architects. Reality sucks.

Then, again, you can drive a friggin' bread truck and make $80,000/year or more. So, why go to college? Certainly not to make the big bucks. There should be a better reason for education than pursuit of money. It used to be that a college degree and/or higher education was the guarantee for a great life, but the world has changed.

I think photography is the same way. If you want to do it, you will find a way, either full-time or part-time or as a hobby, but don't expect education and hard work to get you a high-paying job in photography or anything else. That depends more on luck, your social contacts, position of the planets and the stars and voodoo, IMO.:bang:

BTW, in my experience, if I asked any doctor, lawyer, indian chief, etc. about becoming one of them, most told me not to get into their line of work. Guess why they say that?

 

[dave lackey]

A lot of photographers have to make pretty big compromises to sustain being a full-time photographer by shooting a lot of stuff they don't want to. I could probably start doing wedding photographs full time and get by, but I hate it so much I'd rather lose my sight than do that.

Ha! I have done a few weddings and successfully. The problem is that weddings suck and I will only photography weddings for family and/or friends. I enjoyed sports photography for awhile but everyone with a DSLR is doing that these days because they fancy themselves as a great photographer.

Then, again, you can shoot Santa Claus...(Dr. Freud, you are correct, I said shoot 😱). Or elementary school class pictures, or political events. Personally, I hate them all so I don't do them anymore. I know a lot of people who say they enjoy that line of work, so, great for them. As Fred says, not my problem.

 

[emraphoto]

"The most amazing part is what I learn from these really smart kids... "

this is a statement to pay attention to. the world of photography is changing very, very quickly around us. innovation and new ideas about distribution, marketing, financing etc. are all over the place. most of it coming at a million miles an hour from kids unwilling to accept all the "it can't be done" or "pick another career" business.

decide which camp you are going to pay attention to. the "it can't be done" crowd with "over 40 years of industry experience". DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT DIRECTED AT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR or the folks behind ephasis.org or kickstarter or Colin's friends at Boreal or ?

for the record, the best thing i ever did was to start taking grant writing workshops. whenever someone comes around, who knows their stuff, i go. highly recommend it.

 

[NickTrop]

No different than being a jazz guitarist...

Not enough money in gigs to pay your bills?

- teach guitar classes
- work in a music shop on the weekends selling guitars
- perhaps write some music

Same with any art. You might never get rich, probably won't but you'll be subsisting from something you have a true passion for. Don't know many managers or accountants who can say that.

Just don't go into an art thinking you'll be rich drive the nice car, have the nice house. Not impossible, just unlikely. If those things are what you prefer - or are unwilling to make such sacrifices (often a woman with marriage on her mind is involved here...) get into a better paying field and "jam" on the weekends.

 

[-doomed-]

Why not aim higher than you may go? If you fear that failure will stop you, there was no point in even trying.
I'm all for the dream as big as you can and don't let small failures detract from the main goal. You may never get rich doing it all but at least you know you tried.
Nick, I agree with you on your point about managers and accountants, they may make enough, but at the end of the day did they really do what they wanted?

 

[gavinlg]

"The most amazing part is what I learn from these really smart kids... "

this is a statement to pay attention to. the world of photography is changing very, very quickly around us. innovation and new ideas about distribution, marketing, financing etc. are all over the place. most of it coming at a million miles an hour from kids unwilling to accept all the "it can't be done" or "pick another career" business.

decide which camp you are going to pay attention to. the "it can't be done" crowd with "over 40 years of industry experience". DISCLAIMER - THIS IS NOT DIRECTED AT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR or the folks behind ephasis.org or kickstarter or Colin's friends at Boreal or ?

for the record, the best thing i ever did was to start taking grant writing workshops. whenever someone comes around, who knows their stuff, i go. highly recommend it.

To follow on from this post -

Arnold Schwarzenegger's keys to success

To sum up:
1. Trust yourself, be who YOU want to be.
2. Break the rules, think outside the box, dont avoid trouble, don't be like anyone else.
3. Don't be afraid to fail, be willing to fail, you cant be paralyzed by fear or you will never push yourself.
4. Ignore the naysayers, don't listen to the naysayers.
5. Work your butt off, no pain no gain, work like hell.
6. Giving back, give something back.

If you watch the speech video on the youtube link, the part about naysayers is especially interesting - He talks about the negativity towards his bodybuilding in Austria because it was an unusual sport, he talks about how his austrian accent and muscular build were the reasons why he was initially turned down by agents in the US and that those very things ended up being the reason for his fame...

 

[patois]

Most people fail at most things. It is depressing but the people who ultimately succeed are the people who can see through the bs or keep going. I have to ask myself do I want to have a job where I'm called a "photographer" or do I want to take a lot of pictures. I'd much rather chart my own course and do what I love which is taking pictures rather than being known as a photographer. I think photography is really an interdisciplinary field and it is fun to take those skills and spread them around to do other things like teach or write a book. If you are creative, why not spread it around?

 

[Andy Kibber]

Along the way I had one discussion about the fact that so many photographers resort to trying to make money out of other photographers. i.e. a large number are running photo courses, writing magazine articles, writing books, setting up web forums, publishing photography books, go into teaching at colleges etc etc. I have to conclude that making a living as a photographer must be a very tough business if you have to resort to all these things because you don't have enough actual photography work to keep you busy.

Supply and demand. A lot of people want to be paid for their creative endeavours.

 

[bwcolor]

Was it Aristotle that said, "Teaching is the highest form of understanding"?

 

[Steve M.]

My take on it is that photography is a difficult medium to master, and there aren't that many good photographers. Those that are good, well, that don't necessarily mean that they are making any money. As for people going into teaching, that old dictum about those that can't, teach is usually accurate.

There was a wonderful painter named Giorgio Morandi that painted little still lifes of bottles his entire life.

http://www.villagevoice.com/2008-10...1890-1962-at-the-metropolitan-museum-of-art/#



They're infused w/ the air of Italy, somehow, and he also taught classes for most of his life. However, he was a reputable and respected artist when he did that, and he always made the distinction that he taught technique, not art, as art couldn't be taught. Perhaps photography is exactly the same.

 

[FrankS]

The most important skills to have in order to become a successfull photographer are business skills.

 

[dave lackey]

As for people going into teaching, that old dictum about those that can't, teach is usually accurate.
quote]


With that statement alone, you have managed to slam a number of members here on RFF. From someone who has taught all his life while working full-time as a professional, I can assure you that statement is so inaccurate that I am amazed to see it pop up every once in awhile.😛

It is my opinion, that we ALL share a responsibility to teach in life as we gain knowledge and wisdom. For those who manage to teach full-time, it can be a calling or at least the fulfillment of what they do well, among other things.

For me, it was a passion that made me arise at 1:30am each morning to prepare for class before heading off to the office at 5:00am and return home after 8:00 pm. Work is good and pays the bills. Teaching can be even more.🙂

 

[GSNfan]

Photography is first part technique second purely improvisation. You can learn the technique from books and practice experience, the improvisation part is completely dependent on hard work and talent. everyone should give themselves five years to see if they have what it takes, after that its up to them to go on or not. I'm in my fourth year and things are not looking that promising.

 

[tlitody]

Having thought about this some more, I think it would pay to have several different revenue streams and not rely on one specialism unless you are at the top of that tree. That way if one specialism is not working too well then the others may support it.
I think it may pay to be a jack of all photographic genres to begin with and find the one which works best rather than put all eggs in one basket.
I know of one person who wanted to be a photographer. Went to uni and got his degree. Then spent a fortune on highend equipment and a london studio. Problem was he didn't have an ounce of business acumen and went flat broke very quickly. Should have worked his way up from the bottom using the proceeds from work to grow rather than trying to buy his way in at the top with expensive equipment and no reputation to go with it. He really hadn't learnt his trade and suffered as a consequence. Its all very well being full of theory but thats pretty useless in any business if you can't sell yourself.
So I have some sympathy with all the people doing other things related to photography, teaching and the like. These things can open doors to other photographic work and like having exhibitions, they may not pay much in themselves but can bring in other work which does. A lot of it, I think, is about being perceived to know what you are doing and being able to show work to prove it.

 

[Doug]

True that teachers are not necessarily good at earning a living doing what they teach. But teaching is itself a valuable skill, and a talented teacher can positively influence many others who will go on in life the richer for it.

I had a good photo teacher who was talented at attracting exhibitors and hanging interesting shows in the gallery, but I think he never had a show of his own work. He had a studio up the road in a charming "artists colony" where he shot nudes (and perhaps other subjects)... I only saw a few of his pics. His wife also taught art but was more widely celebrated for her work. I'm very sure not all that many fine photographers are adequate teachers...