Life beyond the hard drive - fine art papers ?

[icebear]

In a recent photo workshop that I took part in, a lot of participants faced the same issue:

How to give your digital images a "life beyond the hard drive"

Getting finally into printing (B/W inkjet) some of my images that I accumulated, I face some hurdles. I already bought a portfolio binder (13x19) with archival grade sheets, so the format is selected.

I will download Canson ICC paper profiles as a local art supply shop is printing on a Epson 9900 is using the Canson paper selection.
Just from the feel of some samples and display of example b/w prints I liked this paper : Platinum Photo Rag 310grs.
http://www.canson-infinity.com/en/platine310.asp

Does anyone have special advice based on experience with this particular paper or would like to share other paper favorites?

Do you have recommendations for tutorials of soft proofing b/w files before taking them to the shop? Do you export files directly from LR4 or do you use Silver FX? I do not want to imitate any film like grain look but would like to achieve a wide tonal range with rich blacks and bright lights - just before blowing anything.

Is using the histogram indicators for blacks and highlights sufficient to get there? I will not get into setting up my own printer but have a Spider4pro calibrated NEC271W to work on the files.

Input to get be through the bottom of this learning curve without wasting too many prints is highly welcome.
Thanks a lot in advance.

 

[Bob Michaels]

I believe that learning to print good b&w digitally using 13x19 sheets of a very expensive paper using a service bureau printer will prove to be very very expensive and take a very long amount of time.

I suggest your reconsider your decision not to have your own printer and begin with small sheets of much less expensive printer. That will save you much time, a ton of money, and you will learn by having control of the entire process.

 

[icebear]

Thanks for your response Bob.
Part of my decision is that I trust that person working with the huge Epson 9900 do know what she is doing, so I would do my part on the files and have the printing done by a pro.
I'm not sure I get the "service bureau printer" ...?

I don't intend to print on a regular bases, so I would have issues with inking drying up everywhere and clogging the printer heads. A b/w printer in A3 or A3+ that doesn't see regular use will most likely be more expensive than a few prints that are not at the peak of possibilities.
But you are right, maybe starting with a smaller size for testing just crops of the final image (much like wet darkroom test strips) might be a good way to save some money. The girl in the shop said she could do that, too.

 

[Vince Lupo]

I'm using Ilford Gold Silk Digital FB, and initially I was going to get my own printer as well. But I have a good friend who owns a digital archival printing business ( http://www.archivalarts.com ), and has the types of printers and inks that I could never even hope to have. So he bought a 100ft. roll just for my prints, and whenever I need something done I just upload it to him, and I can pick it up the next day. As far as any profiles go, he tried using the Ilford profiles and he found that he had to tweak them this way and that for them to work properly. Finally he just printed directly from PhotoShop without the Ilford profile and it worked great -- no tweaking required. So maybe your printer might want to just see what the print looks like directly from the file opened in PhotoShop. Just make sure your screen is calibrated and the print looks good on your screen, and really you should be fine.

 

[icebear]

Hello Vince,

thanks for input. I heard about the Ilford Gold Silk, I think there is an article (and praise) over at Luminous Landscape. But if I'm not mistaken it is not white but does have as the name suggests, a warm touch to it.
To start off, I'd rather go with a pure white and not a toned paper. Pure white would be "paper white" but w/o any OBA's (brighteners) so the Canson seems to fit the bill.

My intention was to try several different approaches with the same image and see which route of processing gives me a desirable finished print.

You are lucky to have a friend in the business that way you don't have to own the equipement but get probably a level of service that no regular customer will get. Always keep you friend in a good mood.

 

[lynnb]

If you buy a printer to make small test prints the results will most likely be different from your bureau friend's results, unless both printers use the same ink sets and profiles - the 9900 uses Epson UltraChrome HDR (High Dynamic Range) Ink. I'm guessing there isn't a huge difference between those inks and the Epson K3 UltraChrome inks used in their smaller printers but one would need to do some test prints to find out. If you bought a Canon printer I'm guessing prints would look different.

However if you produced small test prints on any printer to your satisfaction and then handed these with your files to the bureau that would be a very good way of ensuring consistency, as she would have a known target to aim for.

The following comments relate to my printing experience with the Epson 3880, which uses Epson K3 UltraChrome inks.

For photo rag papers I haven't tried Canson's Platinum Photo Rag, I use Canson Rag Photographique 310 and Hahnemuehle Photo Rag 308. I like both. In test prints I got a bit more shadow detail with the Hahnemuehle, but that might just indicate I needed to process the file differently for the Canson. WIth both papers I use their canned profile.

For a traditional print look I've settled on Canson Baryta Photographique 310 and I'm very pleased with the results - again using the Canson profile downloaded from their site. It's warmer than the Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl I was using previously, has greater weight, and I prefer the surface texture.

I print from both LR and CS4. I don't own Silver FX. When preparing files I use the histogram and a profiled CRT monitor to set black and white points, and fine tune the shadows and highlights by eye on the monitor, taking into account the difference between what the monitor displays versus what I know from experience the print will show (less DR).

If I'm making a large print I always make a small test print first on the same paper.

Edit: I always use Print with Preview when printing.

Cheers,

 

[mdarnton]

I don't know if it's this way on all printers, but in my limited experience, unlike in the darkroom, small prints on my printer look just like the large ones (on the same paper, of course), so I work out all the problems on 4x6 prints before hauling out the 13x19 paper. If you're contact is willing to make small prints, too, and it sounds like that is the case, it would be a lot cheaper to get all the bumps worked out this way, then make only the final prints full size.

 

[Dan Daniel]

I don't know if it's this way on all printers, but in my limited experience, unlike in the darkroom, small prints on my printer look just like the large ones (on the same paper, of course), so I work out all the problems on 4x6 prints before hauling out the 13x19 paper. If you're contact is willing to make small prints, too, and it sounds like that is the case, it would be a lot cheaper to get all the bumps worked out this way, then make only the final prints full size.

Or gang up a set of prints on a 13x19 sheet. Sort of a contact or proof sheet.

 

[Vince Lupo]

I've never really noticed the Ilford Gold Silk as being warm -- looks pretty neutral to me. It does have a great weight, however. And believe it or not, the finished print actually smells like it came from a darkroom!

 

[robert blu]

I usually print on my printer not larger than A4 (sometimes A3+). I'm not a fan of very large prints but recently I needed a few 50x70 cm. I ask a friend to print on his large printer and I noticed that when the files are ok on my calibrated monitor and on my small prints the large prints are slightly different but not bad at all. Shadows and highlights are ok, main difference is only the slightly warmer or colder look, which can be due to different kind of paper. I use Hahnemuehle Photo Rag, or Hahnemuehle Bright White but I know there are many other good papers. I suggest after initial trials to decide a couple of paper and stay with them, in this way you'll learn how to get the maximum from them. If you have a good relationship with the printer (ideally you should print together) and he's experienced a few clicks can arrange most of the prints, of course if the starting point is an acceptable file. I hope this helps.
robert

 

[hlockwood]

SNIP

For photo rag papers I haven't tried Canson's Platinum Photo Rag, I use Canson Rag Photographique 310 and Hahnemuehle Photo Rag 308. I like both. In test prints I got a bit more shadow detail with the Hahnemuehle, but that might just indicate I needed to process the file differently for the Canson. WIth both papers I use their canned profile.

SNIP

I too have settled on Canson Rag Photographique 310 and print with Cone's K7 inks and a custom profile. I'm very satisfied with the results. I do have a stock of HPR 308, but I've put it aside for now.

HFL

 

[icebear]

...
I print from both LR and CS4. I don't own Silver FX. When preparing files I use the histogram and a profiled CRT monitor to set black and white points, and fine tune the shadows and highlights by eye on the monitor, taking into account the difference between what the monitor displays versus what I know from experience the print will show (less DR).

If I'm making a large print I always make a small test print first on the same paper.

Edit: I always use Print with Preview when printing.

Cheers,

Hello Lynn,
thanks for sharing your experience. Do you set the black and white points of the histogram at "just not clipping" or do you give let's say "5pt margin" at both ends ?
The store is a Blick Art supply store and they have a dedicated person handling all the photo printing on that Epson9900. It's not an office/bureau printer.
I will get some small size test prints done on the same paper before wasting 13x19 sheets.
The control of adjustment that is possible in photo software is way beyond what I could ever have achieved in the wet darkroom myself with dodging and burning. So I'm pretty excited to see some images printed for the first time.
Thanks to everyone for all the responses.

 

[Calzone]

Klaus,

I'm not up to speed yet with printing. I bought a Epson 3880 and did not load the inks yet.

My research points to using a Quadtone RIP in lew of the Epson driver. Profiles come with the Quadtone and custom curves can also be added.

Harry in post number 11 uses Peizography (Jon Cone) which uses the Quadtone RIP. I intend on loading up my printer with inks later this year in the fall. Then I will print mucho to avoid the clogging you mention. Also know that Jon Cone sells a cleaner that is used for long term storage. More info is available at Piezography.com. Right now I'm concentrating on image capture and shooting, but this winter when I'm homebound I'll be printing up a storm.

Rob Klurfield bought a 3880 around the time I did. He ran into difficulties and went with a Quadtone Rip and started getting good results using the OEM Epson Inkset. Also note that Chris Crawford uses the Quadtone RIP for his printing.

BTW I intend on exploring Canson papers initially. My 3880 is a 17 inch wide printer. In the fall I'll show you some results.

Cal

 

[icebear]

HI Cal,

thanks for your additional input. I intended to get some prints done and bring them to the June meet-up on Sunday but I didn't have a chance to make the final selection and finetuning of the files which I want to have printed. And the person running the printer is only in the store til noon or by appointment.
But at least I have a portfolio binder and I'm pretty much set for the paper as a starting point.

 

[Piezography Goddess]

I learn best by using, seeing, and feeling different papers, so am constantly experimenting. I have put together two very fat "paper evaluation" binders, which include papers from a range of companies (Canson, Hahnemuhle, Epson, Innova, JonCone Studio, Moab, Hiromi, InkPress, etc...), that I have made both color and Piezography prints on, and carefully examined/evaluated. I am happy to share my findings and thoughts about the papers I have tested, and am open to suggestions of media you like and want my feedback on.

Everyone has their own personal preference, and I feel some images work better with different papers. My personal favorite line is Canson Infinity, primarily Rag Photographique, Edition Etching Rag, BFK Rives, and Baryta Photographique. For more of an artistic and printmaking quality, I love using Hiromi papers.

It is always important to proof before printing finals, and I typically load a bunch of smaller images on a 13x19 sheet to review smaller proofs before editing (if needed), and printing larger finals. I have used a wide range of Epson inkjet printers over the last 13+ years, and am currently using (and loving) my R2880 and 3880 for proofing or printing smaller work, and use several 7880s and 9880s, as well as a 7900 for bigger production prints.

Photography is a process starting with the equipment you use to capture the image, editing techniques and tools you use to get the effect you want, and printing the final product to display your work. I feel the entire process is equally important, and both experience/knowledge and skill are needed at each step for the best end result. The printer, ink and paper you choose can be just as important as the camera, lens and editing software (or developing equipment) you use.

 

[Godfrey]

In a recent photo workshop that I took part in, a lot of participants faced the same issue:

How to give your digital images a "life beyond the hard drive"

Getting finally into printing (B/W inkjet) some of my images that I accumulated, I face some hurdles. I already bought a portfolio binder (13x19) with archival grade sheets, so the format is selected.

I will download Canson ICC paper profiles as a local art supply shop is printing on a Epson 9900 is using the Canson paper selection.
Just from the feel of some samples and display of example b/w prints I liked this paper : Platinum Photo Rag 310grs.
http://www.canson-infinity.com/en/platine310.asp

Does anyone have special advice based on experience with this particular paper or would like to share other paper favorites?

Do you have recommendations for tutorials of soft proofing b/w files before taking them to the shop? Do you export files directly from LR4 or do you use Silver FX? I do not want to imitate any film like grain look but would like to achieve a wide tonal range with rich blacks and bright lights - just before blowing anything.

Is using the histogram indicators for blacks and highlights sufficient to get there? I will not get into setting up my own printer but have a Spider4pro calibrated NEC271W to work on the files.

Input to get be through the bottom of this learning curve without wasting too many prints is highly welcome.
Thanks a lot in advance.

My experience: I couldn't learn how to make great prints by sending my printing off to someone else to do.

I learned how to make satisfying prints by buying a printer and printing, learning the media, the inks, color management printing workflow, and how to render a photograph in monochrome for best printing success. Once I knew how to do that, it became a piece of cake to learn how to use a service bureau's printing profiles for producing sizes larger than I could print at home.

After sweating through the early days of digital B&W printing with various grayscale third party ink sets and RIPs, and destroying two Epson printers in the process, I bought the Epson R2400 in 2005. It prints up to 13x19 cut sheet, up to 13x32 from roll feed, and uses their K3 pigment ink set (archival, including grayscale blacks and a dedicated black for either glossy or matte surface papers). This printer made printing consistent, so I could learn how to do it. I learned display calibration, how different calibrations affect rendering judgement. I learned color managed printing workflow and advanced B&W printing workflow. I learned how to render my photographs to print best.

I am still printing with the R2400. It's produced thousands of prints ... well more than its rated "due by" date suggests (the MTBF). It's produced every print I hung in every exhibition I have entered in, every print I've sold except the ones that needed to be larger (about 10 of them, total). It's printed all my fine art photo cards, business cards, masters for my hand-out collateral, and it continues to produce superb results every time I use it. Best $700 I've ever spent on equipment ... It's paid for itself many times over, and I've learned enough using it that its real value has been orders of magnitude higher than the price tag. When it finally dies, I'll buy the latest Epson 3880 or whatever and keep going.

Bottom line: Want to learn how to make great prints using an inkjet printer? Buy a good printer, good software, and get to work printing your work. An Epson 2880, 3000, or 3880 are all good enough. Be ready to buy and use good papers, and lots of ink.

That's my opinion.

G

 

[mfogiel]

I think you are overcomplicating things.
To begin with, you should simply get a good Epson K3 printer - I believe from 3880 they ar all professional grade, i.e. the print heads are manually registered and verified on each machine before it goes on sale.
Then, you can try various papers - personally I prefer semi glossy, and I use normally the Ilford Gold Silk, but I've heard that Canson made a new baryta paper, which is even better, look up Luminous Landscape for reviews.
Finally, all the profile and rip stuff is redundant, just learn to match the brightness and tones of your computer screen with the output of your Epson in advanced B&W mode ( it is a sort of their own rip). This will give you suprerior results to anything. Make sure to disable photoshop's colour management.

 

[MIkhail]

I think you are overcomplicating things.
To begin with, you should simply get a good Epson K3 printer - I believe from 3880 they ar all professional grade, i.e. the print heads are manually registered and verified on each machine before it goes on sale.
Then, you can try various papers - personally I prefer semi glossy, and I use normally the Ilford Gold Silk, but I've heard that Canson made a new baryta paper, which is even better, look up Luminous Landscape for reviews.
Finally, all the profile and rip stuff is redundant, just learn to match the brightness and tones of your computer screen with the output of your Epson in advanced B&W mode ( it is a sort of their own rip). This will give you suprerior results to anything. Make sure to disable photoshop's colour management.

Agree. You are making it way too complicated -as far as photography concerned, anyway.

 

[icebear]

I learn best by using, seeing, and feeling different papers, so am constantly experimenting. I have put together two very fat "paper evaluation" binders, which include papers from a range of companies (Canson, Hahnemuhle, Epson, Innova, JonCone Studio, Moab, Hiromi, InkPress, etc...), that I have made both color and Piezography prints on, and carefully examined/evaluated. I am happy to share my findings and thoughts about the papers I have tested, and am open to suggestions of media you like and want my feedback on.

Everyone has their own personal preference, and I feel some images work better with different papers. My personal favorite line is Canson Infinity, primarily Rag Photographique, Edition Etching Rag, BFK Rives, and Baryta Photographique. For more of an artistic and printmaking quality, I love using Hiromi papers.

It is always important to proof before printing finals, and I typically load a bunch of smaller images on a 13x19 sheet to review smaller proofs before editing (if needed), and printing larger finals. I have used a wide range of Epson inkjet printers over the last 13+ years, and am currently using (and loving) my R2880 and 3880 for proofing or printing smaller work, and use several 7880s and 9880s, as well as a 7900 for bigger production prints.

Photography is a process starting with the equipment you use to capture the image, editing techniques and tools you use to get the effect you want, and printing the final product to display your work. I feel the entire process is equally important, and both experience/knowledge and skill are needed at each step for the best end result. The printer, ink and paper you choose can be just as important as the camera, lens and editing software (or developing equipment) you use.

What an unpretentious user name . Do you have a business in the field?
Thanks a lot for digging up my thread again and your detailed input. I flipped through a similar example book of paper they had in store. The same BW and the same color photo printed on different papers from various manufactures. Clearly different subjects (e.g. portraits vs landscapes) shine on different papers.
As mentioned before I will not buy my own printer that for sure will get clogged because of dried up ink.

So going into the store with an appointment and work with the person on the prints there (at least that is my idea) will be the closest feedback that I can get for printing my own files.

I think I just have to get going and see a print after drying and then go over the settings I used vs what the expert there thinks how it should look like, so I can adjust accordingly.

And for the beginning I will stick to just one type of paper to keep the variables under control.

I hope you will contribute to the various threads here on inkjet B&W printing. I'm sure Cal(zone) will get into discussions with you shortly.
Welcome to RFF.

 

[icebear]

My experience: I couldn't learn how to make great prints by sending my printing off to someone else to do.

I learned how to make satisfying prints by buying a printer and printing, learning the media, the inks, color management printing workflow, and how to render a photograph in monochrome for best printing success. ...

That's my opinion. G

I think you are overcomplicating things.
To begin with, you should simply get a good Epson K3 printer - I believe from 3880 they ar all professional grade, i.e. the print heads are manually registered and verified on each machine before it goes on sale....

Godfrey and mfogiel,

thanks a lot for your input. You are both absolutely right, getting my own printer and start printing myself would be ideal.
But I am absolutely sure that this is NOT what I personally want to do, as I have clogged up print heads already on a regular basis with my "office" printers at home. This will be an issue even more so, in case I would get a dedicated B&W printer. I am just not printing enough on a regular basis to keep the ink flowing.

So, nope I am not gonna go down that slippery slope .