Ted Striker
Well-known
Very good point. Replenishment is completely unnecessary in the home dark room. The cost savings is minimal. Ilford DD-X is a great developer and was my go to chemical for when I wanted XTOL like results.
Liquid developer similar to XTOL?
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Very good point. Replenishment is completely unnecessary in the home dark room. The cost savings is minimal. Ilford DD-X is a great developer and was my go to chemical for when I wanted XTOL like results.
sepiareverb
genius and moron
I regularly order liquid chemistry direct from Moersch. Contact Wolfgang through his web shop.
Freakscene
Obscure member
Kai-san
Filmwaster
Handy, but almost doubles the price compared to Xtol.
retinax
Well-known
If the huge batch is the main problem, what about Fomadon Excel? It is Xtol, in packs for 1L. Works great for me.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Liquid developers are usually a lot more expensive than powders due to the more expensive packaging required and the higher costs of transporting them (due to their greater weight and volume) from manufacturer to wholesaler to retailer.
Freakscene
Obscure member
Sure, but if you have a problem with storage or capacity to mix it might be better for you. It depends on your priorities.
At 1+3 that litre of stock will develop 16 films. That's about US$0.6 a roll in developer per film. If you can afford film, you can probably afford that. It probably indicates that Xtol, if you use all 5L from a batch, is extremely economical, rather than that this is expensive.
Marty
Kai-san
Filmwaster
I have no problem seeing that storage space or infrequent use can be an issue. I have never had any developer going bad, but I always make sure that there is no or very little air present in storage bottles. The exception is Rodinal which seems to last forever however bad you treat it. I'm in the lucky situation that I can buy Xtol locally for 24 USD at the current exchange rate. I expect that many of you pay less, but I can well afford both that and a fridge full of film. Others are not so lucky.
Regarding dilution I read an interesting article about Xtol in the German PhotoKlassik magazine some years ago. To get the best results you should not dilute Xtol more than 1+1 for T-grain films, but film with traditional grain will benefit from higher dilutions. I've followed that regime since and it seems to work very well.
Regarding dilution I read an interesting article about Xtol in the German PhotoKlassik magazine some years ago. To get the best results you should not dilute Xtol more than 1+1 for T-grain films, but film with traditional grain will benefit from higher dilutions. I've followed that regime since and it seems to work very well.
Freakscene
Obscure member
That is what I do too. T-grain and epitaxial films seem to need more developer. I did the development work for at least one article that was published in that magazine.
Marty
RObert Budding
D'oh!
I tested Tmax films as described in Ansel Adam's book, "The Negative". Checked densities with a densitometer and found that my Normal Development, diluted 1:2, is 12.5 min at 68 deg for EI 320. Very happy with my negatives thus far.
Freakscene
Obscure member
And another liquid ascorbate developer:
https://silberra.com/chemicals/silberra-special-developers/silberra-ascorol-developer
Marty
https://silberra.com/chemicals/silberra-special-developers/silberra-ascorol-developer
Marty
retinax
Well-known
Marty, can you elaborate what the problem is with T-grain films and higher dilutions of X-tol? Seems to work well for me, although times do get long. I think the curve shoulders off more unless you agitate a lot, but I'm fine with that.
Do you have more thoughts about PC-TEA? I'm preparing to make some, I expect it to be a little more grainy and very cheap and convenient.
Do you have more thoughts about PC-TEA? I'm preparing to make some, I expect it to be a little more grainy and very cheap and convenient.
Freakscene
Obscure member
T-Grain and epitaxial films contain a lot of silver iodide, and it needs more developer to develop it. Particularly with T-Max 100 and high key scenes, there just isn’t enough developer in a normal volume of high dilution Xtol to develop the film to a normal density. This is why Kodak dropped the dilutions greater than 1+1 in the 2004 version of the Xtol datasheet. If you are seeing an increased shoulder in the usable portion of the negative you are probably operating near exhaustion of the developer.
If high dilutions work for you with these films, that’s great, but bear in mind one day it might not, although a lot of photographers aren’t attuned enough to the these details to notice unless the development fails entirely.
PC-Tea produces negatives with coarser grain than Xtol because the alkali is unbuffered. It works better if you use dimezone-s instead of phenidone because dimezone-s develops silver more synergistically with ascorbate than phenidone. I had problems with it failing the same as Xtol, and although cheap, it was slow and unpleasant to mix. I corresponded with Pat Gainer, who invented PC-Tea, before he died, but essentially we could only agree to disagree. Tremendously intelligent and nice man.
Marty
retinax
Well-known
Great information, thanks! I've used only 1+2 and I've mostly produced thin-ish negatives from T-max because I always have some shots with high SBR on a roll and prefer printing with higher grades overall, and never have that many high key shots, so yes, I probably just haven't noticed the problems.
I will try PC-TEA to see for myself, as I already have the C and TEA. Unfortunately neither Suvatlar nor Silverprint seem to sell dimezone-s, so I'll probably make do with phenidone, unless someone can suggest another source in Europe? I would think the same considerations about dilute developer apply, especially as the amount of phenidone/dimezone-s in the stuff is very small compared to some other developers?
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
I don't think Chris is saying they are the same as Xtol:
I think he's just suggesting they are a good choice in a liquid developer. I use them myself, for pushing and for Ilford Delta films. I like DD-X for increasing shadow detail, similar to what Xtol does. It seems similar to Ilford Microphen, which I also use from time to time. (But Xtol seems closest to a "free lunch," because of the way it minimizes grain and maximizes film speed and acutance, all in one developer!)
Freakscene
Obscure member
Perhaps, but the original query was asking for a liquid developer that produces results that produce a similar look to that which they get from Xtol. DDX is a great speed enhancing liquid developer, but if you wet print the results look quite different to Xtol.
Marty
Freakscene
Obscure member
Bellini Foto in Italy sells dimezone-s: http://www.bellinifoto.it/en/scheda-prodotti.php?id=87&categoria=12&famiglia=3
Marty
vnukov_pk
Established
Do not try it. It dies very quickly and a lot of ppl I know had problems with film because of silberra ascorol. Same with another liquid developer of their production - mickrol.
Freakscene
Obscure member
I have some on order; I'll report back when I receive it. I prefer to work from my own findings, but all ascorbate developers can suffer rapid oxidation. I'll probably use the whole bottle within a week or so of opening it, and I have lab products to replace the air in the bottle, so for me this risk might be less of a problem.
Marty
