BigSteveG
Well-known
So I'm looking at cameras and wondering whether to buy new or used. I'd love one of those pretty Ebony's (not too many used models out there...a good sign I think), but since I've never shot the format and am a little apprehensive to put major $ into that camera. I also wonder what the utility of a high end camera like that would be since I plan to use the camera for (1) landscape, (2) portraits and (3) a little architecture now and again, primarily exterior shots, if that. How much movement will I need for those applications? Will most lenses offer a commensurate amount of coverage for those apps? I don't feel as if I know enough to purchase used. But I have a seen a few nice Wisners out there. What to look for in a used camera? Do I need levels and a rotating back? Light tightness obviously. Mechanical operation....and cosmetics I suppose. Would I be better of buying a new Tachihara or Shen-Hao? I read the Shen is a little more solid...true? pros and cons of these models from users? Lenses: I see no reason to buy new.....what's the big deal about the Dagor? Is this a "signature" type lens as opposed to an "all around" user? I see coated and un-coated versions. I suppose the coated will give more contrast...less flare....going price of a coated 6in Dagor? Any sense in buying used film holders? what should I look for? I can them for $3 each here and don't want to buy if they are bad for some reason.
Anyhoo.....I'm just looking for some advice....I appreciate any you all could provide
Anyhoo.....I'm just looking for some advice....I appreciate any you all could provide
Roger Hicks
Veteran
If you buy LF, don't piss around with 4x5, which is 'super roll-film' where poor film flatness conveys far less advantage than you might expect over (say) 10-on-120. Buy a format big enough to contact.
The cameras are extremely simple, and you don't need much in the way of movements for landscape, portrait or (most exterior) architecture.
You may (or may not) find the following of interest.
http://www.rogerandfrances.com/photoschool/ps large.html
Cheers,
Roger
The cameras are extremely simple, and you don't need much in the way of movements for landscape, portrait or (most exterior) architecture.
You may (or may not) find the following of interest.
http://www.rogerandfrances.com/photoschool/ps large.html
Cheers,
Roger
Rick Waldroup
Well-known
Roger has a point. I shot a 4x5 sytem for architectural work that I did for several years, but for myself, I shot an 8x10 field camera. I actually thought about getting into a larger format, but never did.
I loved shooting the 8x10- it was an old Wista. I still have all the negs and all the contact prints that I made from those years. There is nothing like them. If you go big, you will really enjoy it more than a 4x5.
I loved shooting the 8x10- it was an old Wista. I still have all the negs and all the contact prints that I made from those years. There is nothing like them. If you go big, you will really enjoy it more than a 4x5.
venchka
Veteran
Thanks a lot Rick
Thanks a lot Rick
I'm really enjoying 4x5 at the moment. Yes, the thought of making 8x10 contact prints wanders through my brain from time to time.
Back on topic: Join the Large Format Photography Forum and ask these questions there. For what it's worth, I bought a Speed Graphic with 2 lenses and 5 holders for $100. Used developing hardware cost me $170. Once you get the stuff together, developing the negatives is a snap. I processed a couple negatives I exposed last Saturday last night after dinner. Took about an hour. More enjoyable than watching TV.
Starting with the post-war Kodak Ektar 203mm/7.7 lens, all of the lenses made for view cameras are good. Dagors are mostly process lenses without shutters and designed with lots of coverage. "Normal" lenses from Kodak, Fuji, Nikkor, Schneider, Rodenstock, etc. will work for you. Pay attention to bellows draw (extension) on any camera you're interested in buying. The more the better. The Shen Hao and my Speed Graphic are limited there. I can't get as close nor use longer lenses.
There is a ton of good gear for sale at the Large Format Forum as well.
Good luck!
Thanks a lot Rick
Rick Waldroup said:
I'm really enjoying 4x5 at the moment. Yes, the thought of making 8x10 contact prints wanders through my brain from time to time.
Back on topic: Join the Large Format Photography Forum and ask these questions there. For what it's worth, I bought a Speed Graphic with 2 lenses and 5 holders for $100. Used developing hardware cost me $170. Once you get the stuff together, developing the negatives is a snap. I processed a couple negatives I exposed last Saturday last night after dinner. Took about an hour. More enjoyable than watching TV.
Starting with the post-war Kodak Ektar 203mm/7.7 lens, all of the lenses made for view cameras are good. Dagors are mostly process lenses without shutters and designed with lots of coverage. "Normal" lenses from Kodak, Fuji, Nikkor, Schneider, Rodenstock, etc. will work for you. Pay attention to bellows draw (extension) on any camera you're interested in buying. The more the better. The Shen Hao and my Speed Graphic are limited there. I can't get as close nor use longer lenses.
There is a ton of good gear for sale at the Large Format Forum as well.
Good luck!
venchka
Veteran
Holders: I prefer to spend money on 6 sheet Grafmatic holders rather than traditional 2 sheet holders. I own one Grafmatic and 5 double film holders. I have resisted the urge to buy more holders while saving my money for more Grafmatics.
Lens: In very round numbers, for 4x5, lenses of 100mm, 200mm and 300mm would meet your stated needs very nicely. Verify coverage!
Lens: In very round numbers, for 4x5, lenses of 100mm, 200mm and 300mm would meet your stated needs very nicely. Verify coverage!
aizan
Veteran
4x5 is the easiest lf to enlarge and scan, so if you want prints bigger than 8x10...except you'd also need an enlarger and other darkroom stuff. i'm stuck at this stage right now, mostly because i want a durst 138 or beseler cb7. in retrospect, it would have been less hassle for me to get a larger format and make contacts. i should have followed the advice in roger's article! 
keithwms
Established
Speed graphic 4x5.
Great starter camera and very solid value.
Crown graphics aren't half bad either, but if you plan to use shutterless lenses for portraiture etc...
But I personally prefer 5x7 because of the contacts you can get. No enlarger required. I much prefer 5x7 ratio to 8x10 and hey, the film costs half as much. I also find lens coverage issues generally less problematic in 5x7 than 8x10.
IMHO the best option is to get a 5x7 with 4x5 adapter. That's what I would advise myself if I could go back in time.
Great starter camera and very solid value.
Crown graphics aren't half bad either, but if you plan to use shutterless lenses for portraiture etc...
But I personally prefer 5x7 because of the contacts you can get. No enlarger required. I much prefer 5x7 ratio to 8x10 and hey, the film costs half as much. I also find lens coverage issues generally less problematic in 5x7 than 8x10.
IMHO the best option is to get a 5x7 with 4x5 adapter. That's what I would advise myself if I could go back in time.
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mervynyan
Mervyn Yan
as i mentioned in the other page, i placed an order for chamonix 45n-1 last month, the waiting time is six-month. i think 4x5 is large enough and light enough for any trip. films and development costs are lot cheaper than 8x10. i think this will be my last film camera for in this decade-
kuzano
Veteran
Shen Hao --- Tachihara
Shen Hao --- Tachihara
Very similar. The Shen is sturdier, and shows it in the weight. It's about 2.5 to 3 pounds heavier than the Tachihara. That's one more lens in the back in a backpack. Sold the Shen Hao after a very few picks and went back to the Tachihara.
I have a friend who has shot a Tachihara for years. Three lenses in the backpack and a number of double holders. He looked at my Shen Hao and passed.
Here is a sample of his work over a long period of time using the Tachihara:
www.brucejacksonphotography.com
I also suggest either the large format forum:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/
or the large format pages over at photo.net:
http://photo.net/bboard/forum?topic_id=1547
Shen Hao --- Tachihara
Very similar. The Shen is sturdier, and shows it in the weight. It's about 2.5 to 3 pounds heavier than the Tachihara. That's one more lens in the back in a backpack. Sold the Shen Hao after a very few picks and went back to the Tachihara.
I have a friend who has shot a Tachihara for years. Three lenses in the backpack and a number of double holders. He looked at my Shen Hao and passed.
Here is a sample of his work over a long period of time using the Tachihara:
www.brucejacksonphotography.com
I also suggest either the large format forum:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/
or the large format pages over at photo.net:
http://photo.net/bboard/forum?topic_id=1547
BigSteveG
Well-known
I've been thinking about contacts too. The 5x7 does appeal, but it seems to be a bit of an ugly stepchild in terms of a format. In addition, I just bought an old Durst-Pro (4x5 max) pretty cheaply and it comes w/ everything I need. The other Dursts are just too expensive in my opinion for a hobbyist such as myself. I think I'll start off with something inexpensive, maybe even a Calumet monorail (which are going for a song these days). If I do end up loving the large format, I'll step up to a convertible Canham 4x5/5x7 setup. Anyone ever use this Canham model? Now I've not been able to find much info on the Chamonix. I've seen vague, lusty references to it on LF forum.
keithwms
Established
5x7 is an ugly stepchild? Retract these words! Don't sweat the film, 5x7 is a sheet of 8x10 cut in half with an inch to spare. Also remember that you can put a 6x17 rollfilm back on a 5x7. I think that is a huge argument in favour of the 5x7. Something about 617. (612 isn't half bad, mind you!)
Another thing, I am not quite sure that 4x5 contacts are so bad, I see a lot of people saying they are too small, but "too small" depends on how you compose. I've seen some 6x7cm contacts that I thought were gorgeous.
On the other hand... I will say something that you may or may not believe. If you slightly enlarge 4x5 to 5x7 to make 5x7 contacts, you will see virtually zero degradation or change in the grain at all. Obviously my statement depends on what film you are using and how good a job you do duping the neg or chrome, but if it's a fine grain b&w or chrome done right, this is a really nice way to get 5x7 or perhaps larger contacts out of a 4x5 frame.
Some may counter, why not just enlarge to paper?! Well one of the things that will eventually intrigue you about LF is doing contact prints using alternative processes like cyanotype and Pt/Pd etc. I quickly fell out of love with enlarging to prints after beginning to [conservatively] enlarge negs and chromes. I feel that one can normally jump ~one step up in format size without any discernible penalty in contact print qualty.
Another thing, I am not quite sure that 4x5 contacts are so bad, I see a lot of people saying they are too small, but "too small" depends on how you compose. I've seen some 6x7cm contacts that I thought were gorgeous.
On the other hand... I will say something that you may or may not believe. If you slightly enlarge 4x5 to 5x7 to make 5x7 contacts, you will see virtually zero degradation or change in the grain at all. Obviously my statement depends on what film you are using and how good a job you do duping the neg or chrome, but if it's a fine grain b&w or chrome done right, this is a really nice way to get 5x7 or perhaps larger contacts out of a 4x5 frame.
Some may counter, why not just enlarge to paper?! Well one of the things that will eventually intrigue you about LF is doing contact prints using alternative processes like cyanotype and Pt/Pd etc. I quickly fell out of love with enlarging to prints after beginning to [conservatively] enlarge negs and chromes. I feel that one can normally jump ~one step up in format size without any discernible penalty in contact print qualty.
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cosmonot
uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝʞ
I'd reccommend a Super Graphic, or Super Speed Graphic if the lack of a FP shutter isn't a problem. Those are a great value, and cheap. I sold one in fine shape with a bad 1/1000 shutter for ~$200 not too long ago. Easy to get cheap film/holders (priced new 5x7 cut film holders lately?) and built like an aluminum brick. And they have coupled rangefinders, so I guess they're wholly on-topic here.keithwms said:
Still have access to one formerly owned by a beloved family member, and I use it a couple times a year when I visit home. Only with the 6x9cm rollfilm back so far, but now with the Jobo, I'm eyeing some sheet film some time soon.
BigSteveG
Well-known
"5x7 is an ugly stepchild? Retract these words! Don't sweat the film, 5x7 is a sheet of 8x10 cut in half with an inch to spare"
Sorry Keith....I'm a bit of a philistine. Cosmonot: I've noticed the 5x7 holders are pretty steep. Now I'm wondering the if Tachiharas and Shen-haos can take an enlarging back. They're reasonably inexpensive new in comparison to other wooden folders. I think i'd prefer to shoot a 5x7 negative rather than copying. But that is an intriguing idea.
Sorry Keith....I'm a bit of a philistine. Cosmonot: I've noticed the 5x7 holders are pretty steep. Now I'm wondering the if Tachiharas and Shen-haos can take an enlarging back. They're reasonably inexpensive new in comparison to other wooden folders. I think i'd prefer to shoot a 5x7 negative rather than copying. But that is an intriguing idea.
kmack
do your job, then let go
Another advantage to 5x7 is that a lot of the 4x5 lenses can cover 5x7.
venchka
Veteran
In the last 6-12 months I have seen numerous cameras up to 8x10 with smaller backs for sale at the Large Format Photography Forum. 8x10, 5x7, 4x5 combinations are not uncommon.
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Wayne, I took the dive
Last week I got a Crown Graphic with Ektar 127mm and five Riteway holders, the seller promised six so he generously tossed in a 120 roll film holder. Not having any films for it yet, I took it slow, and I'm glad I did
Now I played with that thing enough to understand what makes it tick and ready to expose some silver-halide, or to quote Roger, to piss around with 4x5
Just for kicks I use my Olympus C5050 as a poor man's digital back and shot through the ground glass:
I see that I'm going to have some fun with the Crown Graphic
Last week I got a Crown Graphic with Ektar 127mm and five Riteway holders, the seller promised six so he generously tossed in a 120 roll film holder. Not having any films for it yet, I took it slow, and I'm glad I did
Now I played with that thing enough to understand what makes it tick and ready to expose some silver-halide, or to quote Roger, to piss around with 4x5
Just for kicks I use my Olympus C5050 as a poor man's digital back and shot through the ground glass:
I see that I'm going to have some fun with the Crown Graphic