looking for a 120 folder: Bessa II vs Super Ikonta C MX

[jett]

Looking for a moderately robust and moderately priced 120 6x9 folder. I'm leaning mostly towards a Bessa II (Skopar) or a Super Ikonta C (Tessar).

Anyone have experience with these two cameras? Which do you prefer, why?

I believe that the Bessa II is unit focusing and so it might have an edge in IQ ...but with folders... I think that film flatness and front standard rigidity are no less important. I know that folders are not the most robust or the most accurate but they are very compact.

 

[Crazy Fedya]

I have both of them, pre-war Super Ikonta C with uncoated Tessar and Bessa II with single-coated Heliar, not Skopar. They are both fantastic cameras, however, I think, Bessa II has more of a flimsy front standart, that might be prone to misalignment.
I also have a Perkeo II with cell focusing Skopar and Super Ikonta III with cOated Opton Tessar? I prefer Voigtlander lenses for color and Zeiss lenses for black and white. I don't think there is much difference in performance between Skopar and Tessar, IMHO.

But then, I am not a pixel peeper, I am a gear lunatic. Love them auld cameras!

 

[shortstop]

I have a Welta Weltur 6x9. It's rare. Mounted lens is a Schneider Xenar 105/3,8 uncoated.
I (obviously) prefer Weltur, but between Bessa and Super Ikonta, Bessa is easier to use.

 

[sevo]

I have a Welta Weltur 6x9. It's rare. Mounted lens is a Schneider Xenar 105/3,8 uncoated.
I (obviously) prefer Weltur, but between Bessa and Super Ikonta, Bessa is easier to use.

That is a bit debatable. The Bessa II is a bit less quirky than the (much older) Super Ikonta C, but what ergonomic advantages it has go all the way to accomodate a one-armed left-handed user. For the majority, both are somewhat odd and uncomfortable. The post war Super Ikonta IV (alas, 6x6 only) is much better laid out than either...

 

[Muggins]

but what ergonomic advantages it has go all the way to accomodate a one-armed left-handed user.

As sevo says, whatever the spec advantages of one over another, for any camera this age you are probably going to have to deal with some quirks - possibly quite major ones. Ergonomics wasn't thought of then (see the Argus C3 for details) so be aware that you may have handling problems even if the camera is working as intended. I love my collection of wrinkly cameras, but some are very, very awkward to use!

Adrian

 

[Solinar]

Both the Bessa II and Ikonta C models are left hand shooters.

I say Ikonta C models - because the Super Ikonta C MX is an upscale variation of the non-RF Ikonta. I have the Ikonta III C with an uncouple RF and a Opton Tessar, a.k.a the Zeiss Ikon 524/2, which is sometimes called an Ikonta M.

If a robust build is what you want, then hands down, the Zeiss ikon Ikonta would be my first choice. It is rock solid. No complaints here regarding the Tessar when it comes to contrast and sharpness.

I also have a Bessa II with a Heliar. What everyone says about jiggly front standard is true. However, the coupled unit focusing RF and the option for a Heliar makes it my first choice over the Ikonta C. Damn the jiggly front standard torpedoess - the out of focus backgrounds the Heliar paints is so pleasantly creamy - that the Bessa II is a keeper.

If only the Bessa II had the build and rock solid front standard of Crown Graphic.

 

[citizen99]

I had a Super Ikonta C, just over 40 years ago for a while, which took some pretty nice pictures.

Currently my favourite 6x9 folder is the Bessa Rangefinder from the late 1930s, which is similar enough to its Bessa II 'descendant' in respect of the issues discussed in this thread. Perhaps I am fortunate to have got one where the front standard is 'rock solid', but with sympathetic handling there's no reason why it shouldn't last for the next 75+ years of its life . My point is, not to assume that all specimens of the Bessa II would have a 'rickety' front standard, it's worth checking out what's available.

I am right-handed; I hold the Bessa body in both hands and operate the deployed body release with my left hand index finger; it's smooth and the 'squeeze' type motion helps to minimise camera shake.

+1 to the praise for the Heliar as well, the Skopar is also excellent in my experience.

 

[shortstop]

Also my Weltur is left handed shooter; I'm left handed, but my other cameras have release shutter on the right and this has never been a problem. Between Bessa II and Bessa RF I prefer the last (black body); it's cheaper and, except uncoated lens (not so important), it is the same camera. Super Ikontas are sturdy cameras, but Welta Weltur are sturdier. Super Ikontas have ucoupled RF and opaque Albada VF. Weltur has coupled crisp RF and nice VF (considering it's a '30 years camera). It's a pleasure to use it. This is why I choiced to expect the necessary time to have one (it's infrequent on ebay). Anyway, considering its rarity, my second choice in 6x9 would be between a prewar Bessa RF, a Super Ikonta IV or a Billy Rekord III (unfortunately all uncoupled RF). Bessa II to me is overrated.

 

[Crazy Fedya]

I have to agree, that Bessa II is overrated, as far as price for Skopar model, but Heliar equipped one is a fantastic picture taking machine. I would gladly exchange Bessa II for Super Ikonta C, if it came with Heliar. Unfortunately, it is not possible.
I also happen to own a 1949 Voigtlander Brillant, equipped with uncoated Heliar. It is a cell focusing lens. When I bought it, it was in a really bad condition. Fortunately, I was able to repair broken bakelite, and make it usable again, but, when it was in a state of disrepair, I was thinking about transplanting the lens to a different body, and If I wasn't succesful in doing so, I would probably mount it on one of the folders.

 

[Crazy Fedya]

I guess, I got distracted from original question thinking about Heliar.
As far as Skopar vs Tessar and Bessa vs Super Ikonta, I think you should get the one in nicest condition and with lowest price. Both lenses will perform similar. Tessar might be a little softer on closest distances and wide open due to being a cell focusing lens. I never found this to be a deal breaker.

 

[citizen99]

Oh, BTW, the Bessa RF has a coupled rangefinder (like the Bessa II). My Super Ikonta C had a coupled rangefinder, implemented by rotating prism coupled to the lens front cell focus rotation.

 

[shortstop]

Oh, BTW, the Bessa RF has a coupled rangefinder (like the Bessa II). My Super Ikonta C had a coupled rangefinder, implemented by rotating prism coupled to the lens front cell focus rotation.

You are right, I was wrong. They are coupled, but in Bessa II and in Welta Weltur the RF is in the VF. A big difference. The same difference between screw mount and M Leicas.

 

[f16sunshine]

This subject has come up several times.
The Bessa ii with the Color Heliar produces the most beautiful images from all the 6x9 cameras of the era.
I've tried most all of them. There are some ergonomic and strength advantages in other cameras. ... it's true...
...But! If Image character and quality is your main concern. Find a Bess ii Color Heliar model in excellent working condition. Spend the money on it and possibly a CLA and use it with great results.
You won't be disappointed and if you ever go to sell there will be a waiting market to take your camera.

I always post these 2 images in these threads so no reason to change now. This is all I have online but gives a nice idea. Both scanned with an epson Flatbed from Negative (not great).

Bessa ii Color Heliar in Portrait Range. Tmax400 at 100 Rodinal 1:100 1hr
When it really is love. by Adnan W, on Flickr

This one is with the older Bessa RF with un-Coated Heliar. Special in a different way.
Tmax 400 at 100. Tmax Developer 1:4 6mins @20c
Found... Camera geeks by Adnan W, on Flickr

 

[GaryLH]

My first Bessa II had a Skopar on it and a misaligned front standard (came from a so called reputable seller, turned they never actually do a diag on the used cameras they pick up). Long story short, it was in great condition otherwise, sent it to Ken Ruth.. Not a problem since. I liked it so much that I bought a second Bessa II. This time I was lucky enough to get one w/ a Heliar. To me, the Heliar is the one to get.

I have also had a pre-war ikonta c. Though both are left hand focus, I prefer the overall ergonomics of the Bessa II. Both the Skopar and Tessar lenses are four element designs. I tend to prefer the look of the Skopar to the tessar myself, but that us a matter of taste. The Heliar is a five element design. The Vaskar are triplets, not seen on a Bessa II, but can be seen on other Bessa's at times. There is a rare Lanthar that is extremely expensive, collector area pricing. A member of rff was listing shots from his for a while.

Gary

 

[GaryLH]

Andy,

I have always like the first shot the best.

Gary

 

[f16sunshine]

Andy,

I have always like the first shot the best.

Gary

Thanks Gary Would love to see some of your results too

This winter I will scan and upload some more images.
These threads keep coning up. I think Image samples are very useful and can help motivate a choice one way or another.

 

[GaryLH]

That's my biggest problem.. Plan a** lazy when comes down to the scanning phase. I have got rolls sitting around from 12 years ago I have not gotten around to scanning .

Gary

 

[citizen99]

... in Bessa II and in Welta Weltur the RF is in the VF. A big difference. The same difference between screw mount and M Leicas.

Good point, a significant convenience .

I also do fancy the Weltur, but the 6x9 version seems to be rare, I can't remember seeing one for sale.

I would give another 'honourable mention' to the Agfa Record III, although non-coupled, it's a very nice pocketable camera.

 

[CMur12]

I once had a Bessa II with Color Skopar lens that I got from a family friend when I was in college. It was in mint condition and it felt fairly solid for a folder, but I can see how it could be easily damaged. I liked the focusing wheel on the camera body. I got some beautiful chromes with that camera.

I eventually sold it because the VF/RF window was so small and squinty that it became very difficult to use it as I became more dependent on eyeglasses.

Perhaps the following is already known here, so forgive me if I state the obvious:
I understand the Skopar to be a Tessar-type lens.
The Heliar is more equivalent to the Zeiss Planar and Schneider Xenotar.

- Murray

 

[shortstop]

Good point, a significant convenience . I also do fancy the Weltur, but the 6x9 version seems to be rare, I can't remember seeing one for sale. I would give another 'honourable mention' to the Agfa Record III, although non-coupled, it's a very nice pocketable camera.

Agfa Record III is a nice camera with an excellent lens (Solinar); I like the items of Jürgen Kreckel (Certo 6) with coloured bellows. Super Ikonta IV is sturdier. A folding 6x9 is always a slow camera and uncoupled RF may not be a problem.