FredericGeorge
Member
Hello all !
I have quickly become a regular reader of this forum lately as grew my interest for a Leica Screw Mount.
I am Belgian, started photography at 15 in 1986, became pro in 93 and am still shooting although I quit the business.
Anyway, for 2 years or so now I have been shooting film again and lately I have been playing with some rangefinders, Yashica Electro 3G GX, Konica Auto S3 ... in a quest for small, zen and beautiful.
I find myself too limited with those camera, lacking full manual control.
After spending some times considering an M mount, I started thinking why not go all the way to a Barnack.
To make a long story short, I have narrowed the search localy and have found two valid options nearby.
- A IIF with Elmar 50 3,5 - The body (#821655) seems to be in working order and in a very nice condition - the lens (#203925) is a bit beat up and has a dent on the outer ring. It could be a red dial but I could not make it clearly, the ISO reminder is red but the numbers on the plate I don't know for sure - they look dark. The guy selling does not really know what he has and how to use it. I could score this set for 300 euros.
- A IIIF with a Jupiter 3 and leather pouch (not needed really) - The body (#545150) in clean condition and in working order, so is the Jupiter, sold by a photographer, seems like a very nice chap, taking good care of his gear. Asking price is 575 euros for the set.
So therein lays my question, what would you advice is best to start ?
Many thanks for your help ! This forum is a great source of info.
I have quickly become a regular reader of this forum lately as grew my interest for a Leica Screw Mount.
I am Belgian, started photography at 15 in 1986, became pro in 93 and am still shooting although I quit the business.
Anyway, for 2 years or so now I have been shooting film again and lately I have been playing with some rangefinders, Yashica Electro 3G GX, Konica Auto S3 ... in a quest for small, zen and beautiful.
I find myself too limited with those camera, lacking full manual control.
After spending some times considering an M mount, I started thinking why not go all the way to a Barnack.
To make a long story short, I have narrowed the search localy and have found two valid options nearby.
- A IIF with Elmar 50 3,5 - The body (#821655) seems to be in working order and in a very nice condition - the lens (#203925) is a bit beat up and has a dent on the outer ring. It could be a red dial but I could not make it clearly, the ISO reminder is red but the numbers on the plate I don't know for sure - they look dark. The guy selling does not really know what he has and how to use it. I could score this set for 300 euros.
- A IIIF with a Jupiter 3 and leather pouch (not needed really) - The body (#545150) in clean condition and in working order, so is the Jupiter, sold by a photographer, seems like a very nice chap, taking good care of his gear. Asking price is 575 euros for the set.
So therein lays my question, what would you advice is best to start ?
Many thanks for your help ! This forum is a great source of info.
css9450
Veteran
My advice would be to expand your pool of candidates to include the many and varied Japanese LTM clones. They are often found in excellent condition, use the same lenses and accessories and many include features not found on the Leica originals. Usually at very attractive prices too.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
I'll skip II series. Only 1/25 is shame for rangefinder, which could handle handheld down to 1/4.
J-3 is around 150 USD lens. I would say 500$ maximum, for kit.
With Leica LTM you will pay much more than for M if you want to have fancy VF.
SBOOI for 50mm which make huge difference is 100$ at least. Any decent, not vintage VF for 35, 28 is 200$. But I used crapped out XA2 VF for 35mm VF and it also works for 28.
With with J-3 you must watch aperture and never keep it wide open under bright light.
J-3 is around 150 USD lens. I would say 500$ maximum, for kit.
With Leica LTM you will pay much more than for M if you want to have fancy VF.
SBOOI for 50mm which make huge difference is 100$ at least. Any decent, not vintage VF for 35, 28 is 200$. But I used crapped out XA2 VF for 35mm VF and it also works for 28.
With with J-3 you must watch aperture and never keep it wide open under bright light.
FredericGeorge
Member
Hey, thanks, I have been looking at mostly all of them, but I really decided it would be a Leica.
Nothing snob about this, I just had to decide at one point.
Nothing snob about this, I just had to decide at one point.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Based on my own purchasing experience... Most of Japanese clones are kind of huge for LTM. Some of them even bigger than film M.
So far only Nicca III series are matching Leica III series by size, but it is not Leica for sure.
So far only Nicca III series are matching Leica III series by size, but it is not Leica for sure.
alexmuir
Member
Looking for some advices on first buy
I recently bought a IIIF. I really like it. I use a collapsible Industar 50mm on it, but am in the process of buying an Elmar 50mm f3.5. You could check out what bodies and lenses are available separately. That way you can aim to get the best available body and lens.
Alex
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I recently bought a IIIF. I really like it. I use a collapsible Industar 50mm on it, but am in the process of buying an Elmar 50mm f3.5. You could check out what bodies and lenses are available separately. That way you can aim to get the best available body and lens.
Alex
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
David Hughes
David Hughes
If the important word is start then I'd suggest the classic model II and an Elmar. A simple version that many people love but be warned; no matter what you start with you will end with a lot of them...
Regards, David
Regards, David
Those prices seem very high, look on eBay for clean cameras that have had a clean, lube, and adjustment.
Personally I favor the older black Leica II with the collapsible 50/3.5 Elmar as my most frequently used film camera combination. I do not like the clutter of the useless slow speed dial and I've had most of the popular models by now. But the IIIf in either black or red dial will be plentiful and a good starting point. Some of the IIc and IIIc bodies can be less expensive but cosmetically rough.
The classified ads here on RFF are good as well, especially since the seller will have feedback and you can judge from their posts.
In general plan to have it serviced unless the seller is of high repute and honest. Look for recommendations from photographers in your region.
Lenses often have haze and scratches. Most haze can be cleaned by a serviceperson or careful user (at least a simpler lens like a Elmar) but scratches are forever! However sometimes the scratches and haze add some personality so shoot a roll and see. Prices of Elmars vary greatly as they were made over a long period. A USSR copy is fine to start with, some can be very good but all will be a little sloppier than the original.
Personally I favor the older black Leica II with the collapsible 50/3.5 Elmar as my most frequently used film camera combination. I do not like the clutter of the useless slow speed dial and I've had most of the popular models by now. But the IIIf in either black or red dial will be plentiful and a good starting point. Some of the IIc and IIIc bodies can be less expensive but cosmetically rough.
The classified ads here on RFF are good as well, especially since the seller will have feedback and you can judge from their posts.
In general plan to have it serviced unless the seller is of high repute and honest. Look for recommendations from photographers in your region.
Lenses often have haze and scratches. Most haze can be cleaned by a serviceperson or careful user (at least a simpler lens like a Elmar) but scratches are forever! However sometimes the scratches and haze add some personality so shoot a roll and see. Prices of Elmars vary greatly as they were made over a long period. A USSR copy is fine to start with, some can be very good but all will be a little sloppier than the original.
css9450
Veteran
I think the larger ones are more along the lines of the later Canons and the later Russian cameras.... The early Canons and the Niccas and Leotaxes are pretty close in size and are probably superior cameras.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Every old screwmount Leica i have seen has needed overhauled. Most of them need new shutter curtains, and replacement of the beamsplitter in the rangefinder because the secondary image in the rangefinder is dim.
I would not pay a high price for an old beat up one. In the US, famed Leica repairman Don Goldberg sells screwmount Leicas he has rebuilt. They're expensive, $350-$400 for a body and no lens, BUT that is really a good deal when you consider that he charges more than $300 to service one! I bet there's someone in Europe rebuilding and selling them too.
I would not pay a high price for an old beat up one. In the US, famed Leica repairman Don Goldberg sells screwmount Leicas he has rebuilt. They're expensive, $350-$400 for a body and no lens, BUT that is really a good deal when you consider that he charges more than $300 to service one! I bet there's someone in Europe rebuilding and selling them too.
02Pilot
Malcontent
Of those two I'd go for the IIF/Elmar combo, but with the caveat that you may need to consider a CLA, especially if the curtains prove an issue. I'd argue that it's best to assume you will need to service any Barnack you buy unless there's documentation of it having been done.
The second point is actually a question: What kind of photography are you intending to do with this camera? The Barnack system is quite flexible, but as noted above things like external viewfinders can get expensive, and are really rather important for street photography or if you wish to use anything other than a 50mm lens.
The second point is actually a question: What kind of photography are you intending to do with this camera? The Barnack system is quite flexible, but as noted above things like external viewfinders can get expensive, and are really rather important for street photography or if you wish to use anything other than a 50mm lens.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
I have Leotax and Canon from fifties. They are visibly lager than Nicca IIIa I also have. Only Nicca is matching Leica without useless bells and whistles Japanese makers added.
The reason I purchased Canon and Leotax is to practice on CLA and curtains reimplement.
Nicca IIIa is good but not as good as LTM Leica. Mine was serviced, but I still have to deal with dull RF patch and not aligned film advance with film channel. Exterior is kind of FED-5 as well.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
The first two Leica cameras I owned myself were a IIc and a IIf fitted respectively with Elmar 5.0cm and 3.5cm lenses, the former uncoated. Liked them a lot, shot with them for years. The lack of low speeds was rarely a hindrance. Both were lost in unusual ways once upon a time, but they remain favorites in my memory.
Both cameras and their lenses were sold to me by a big dealer in NYC who required the amazing sum of $99 for the purchase once upon the day because, "Nobody wants this old junk anymore. Get it outta here, I can use the space in my display cabinet!" LOL! (This was about 50 years ago... both cameras were older than I was...
)
G
Both cameras and their lenses were sold to me by a big dealer in NYC who required the amazing sum of $99 for the purchase once upon the day because, "Nobody wants this old junk anymore. Get it outta here, I can use the space in my display cabinet!" LOL! (This was about 50 years ago... both cameras were older than I was...
) G
charjohncarter
Veteran
My IIIf with an Elmar 50mm f3.5 has been with me since 1964. I still get a 'Zen' charge every time I use it. You can make up your own mine, but the Leica thread mount is heaven.
k-109 by John Carter, on Flickr
and I set it up to zone focus with this Super Takumar 28mm.
Untitled by John Carter, on Flickr
I agree with Godfrey; I don't think I've ever used the slow speed dial with film in the camera.
k-109 by John Carter, on Flickrand I set it up to zone focus with this Super Takumar 28mm.
Untitled by John Carter, on FlickrI agree with Godfrey; I don't think I've ever used the slow speed dial with film in the camera.
Gerry M
Gerry
IIIF with CV 25/4
A very compact kit. VF not really needed, just point & shoot.
newst
Well-known
Before you spend your money look into a Canon P. In size it is larger than the Barnack by only millimeters in any dimension. It has a coincident rangefinder/viewfinder with frames for 35, 50 and 100mm. It is built like a tank. It has a back that opens so no bottom loading or leader trimming. It was considered serious competition for the early Leica M models. It has speeds up to 1/1000. It also uses a metal shutter that is not subject to having holes burnt into it. As for the metal shutter, every one I have ever seen has had some level of crinkling, visible through the lens mount. I have never seen a camera where that crinkling has had any effect on the camera's performance.
Of course, I have no idea what those cameras cost for you locally or what import duties etc. would be in your country, but I believe it would be worth investigating.
Of course, I have no idea what those cameras cost for you locally or what import duties etc. would be in your country, but I believe it would be worth investigating.
Vince Lupo
Whatever
Here is a good body, plus you can be assured of its mechanical condition:
https://www.dagcamera.com/store/p204/Leica_lllc_camera_(post_war)-.html
https://www.dagcamera.com/store/p204/Leica_lllc_camera_(post_war)-.html
FredericGeorge
Member
Wow, thank you for all the answers already !
Points taken for the CLA - will keep in mind
I have to admit that the compactness of an Elmar is very appealing.
I am still pondering the need of slow speed, I know from experience that I hardly use them.
This particular IIF has a max speed of 1000 - that I consider a plus , I like shooting wide open and usually using Tri-X.
I would be quite happy with the 50, it was my favorite lens for a long time.
I have to admit that having seen some results of the summitar I would probably look for one too.
Any online european sellers you could recommend ?
Points taken for the CLA - will keep in mind
I have to admit that the compactness of an Elmar is very appealing.
I am still pondering the need of slow speed, I know from experience that I hardly use them.
This particular IIF has a max speed of 1000 - that I consider a plus , I like shooting wide open and usually using Tri-X.
I would be quite happy with the 50, it was my favorite lens for a long time.
I have to admit that having seen some results of the summitar I would probably look for one too.
Any online european sellers you could recommend ?
FredericGeorge
Member
That is very nice indeed, thanks for the link
Dralowid
Michael
Everyone has their favourites so it can be rare to get an answer to your specific question (if there was one!).
There is really nothing wrong with a IIf and an Elmar. From a UK perspective the IIf commands a lower price than many and seems often to be in better than expected condition. I don't know why, maybe they just never got used as much as the others. It doesn't really matter if it is red or black dial. Though from memory the black dial is rarer it has no bearing on price. The lens sounds like it has taken a hit which might just be cosmetic or might lead to things being bent out of true.
...and then you mention a desire for a Summitar...you are surely doomed to a lifetime of LTM desires.
There is really nothing wrong with a IIf and an Elmar. From a UK perspective the IIf commands a lower price than many and seems often to be in better than expected condition. I don't know why, maybe they just never got used as much as the others. It doesn't really matter if it is red or black dial. Though from memory the black dial is rarer it has no bearing on price. The lens sounds like it has taken a hit which might just be cosmetic or might lead to things being bent out of true.
...and then you mention a desire for a Summitar...you are surely doomed to a lifetime of LTM desires.