Looks like Film may win over today's Digital Photography in the long run.

Try reading a PhotoCD. Or open an old PowerPoint file. Or old Quicken file. Or a SCSI hard disk. You can do it, but it's not easy.

My approach:
- Keep everything on a hard disk withbackups
- Every three years copy to a new larger hard disk, throw away the old one. Don't wait for it to fail.

- Use the most common file formats. Save a TIFF for important images.

Yup, I would add, make the next HD, an External or a 2x2 RAID.. (I use a simple "clone" setting)

I just wonder how long BluRay will be around? or is a larger disk protocol than 128gig is in the works?

Are there HD with Archive longevity out there?
 
Looks like Film may win over today's Digital Photography in the long run.

win what?
if i'm dead i sure as hell don't care what state my pics are in!
I doubt if Vivian Maier is expending much energy stewing over her trove of negatives. She has more pressing issues these days...
 
People are conflagrating some separate issues in this thread.

One, digital is not archival. If a small part of the digital file is corrupted, the file is all but lost. I have more than a few images that were backed up, and the back up corrupted the back up, etc. I have TIF files from Photoshop 4 that are not readable on the current iteration (thanks Adobe!). If you think you are immune to digital decay, you are smoking some crack.

Two, a silver print (as well as a color print) will last longer than a digital file without much effort at all. Most old photographs are doing just fine today, 100 years plus on. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that a digital file left alone will not be readable in 100 years. If you think the opposite, you again are smokin' some crack.

Three, whether or not an image is important is irrelevant. Most images are not important, but it isn't up to us to decide. If your grandson remembers you because of a print he found, it is easy for him to keep the print because he can see it. If he finds a hard drive with rust on it, it is going in the trash. If you think something different, you are smokin' some crack.

I think you can see where I stand on this. Experience has taught me well. If you have your head buried in the sand I feel sorry for you.
 
People are conflagrating some separate issues in this thread.

One, digital is not archival. If a small part of the digital file is corrupted, the file is all but lost. I have more than a few images that were backed up, and the back up corrupted the back up, etc. I have TIF files from Photoshop 4 that are not readable on the current iteration (thanks Adobe!). If you think you are immune to digital decay, you are smoking some crack.

Two, a silver print (as well as a color print) will last longer than a digital file without much effort at all. Most old photographs are doing just fine today, 100 years plus on. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that a digital file left alone will not be readable in 100 years. If you think the opposite, you again are smokin' some crack.

Three, whether or not an image is important is irrelevant. Most images are not important, but it isn't up to us to decide. If your grandson remembers you because of a print he found, it is easy for him to keep the print because he can see it. If he finds a hard drive with rust on it, it is going in the trash. If you think something different, you are smokin' some crack.

I think you can see where I stand on this. Experience has taught me well. If you have your head buried in the sand I feel sorry for you.

I see your point about 'one small part corrupted', and it's true to a point. However, it's more to do with using the wrong file formats like TIFF with Adobe extensions.

There is no reason why data cannot be stored in a format which will not only be readable by future computers, but be so simple that simply looking at the bytes within will explain to a competent programmer how to display it.

But people don't.

People do as they are told and save in whatever format Adobe, Apple or Microsoft tell them to. If we wanted to get serious about digital archiving, we could, but few are interested.

People *can* be immune to digital decay (as much we can be immune to anything, anyway), but we choose not to be, it's that simple.

With commonplace networking these days, you could have 10 perfect backups if you wanted to. It's possible some nuclear attack would wipe them all out, but I can't imagine printed photographs faring too well either.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a film user, don't use digital at all, but digital *is* very easy to backup if you know how.

It's easy to use the example of old disks to say that historically we've not been able to reliably backup data, but that was then and this is now. Had we had network services like Dropbox, Amazon S3, Microsoft Azure, Google Drive, or one of many other services, then maybe that data would be perfectly safe, sitting in 10 perfectly replicated backups.

We can have as good backup as we want to, but few know how, and fewer even care.
 
Good luck with that Thegman. You are using hypotheticals, and I am living in the real world. Once a print is made and put away in a safe place, the work is done. You can't say that for any digital form whatsoever. If you need a programmer to interpret your data, it is lost. Digital archiving needs constant attention. If a file is corrupt, it is gone in all practicalities. If you get dirt on a print, you can easily wipe it off. It is recognizable even with scratches on it. If it gets wet, it can be dried without much effort.

Explain to me again the hypothetical world that you live in. In the real world, it just isn't the case.

Computing the way it is now will change. There will be bottlenecks that occur and anything that is left behind will be gone. That is the way it will be. Thinking anything different is living in a dream world.
 
"Two, a silver print (as well as a color print) will last longer than a digital file without much effort at all. Most old photographs are doing just fine today, 100 years plus on."

Most old photographs are in a landfill or being bought at a rummage sell for the kids to cut up and glue into collages for school projects, or decaying in a box somewhere never to be looked at again.

Our love of film and physical prints tends to make us myopic.
 
This is an archival issue, not a photographic one, since whichever side of the debate one stands on a digital file can be stored using analog technology and negatives/prints can be stored digitally. To switch to medium over the other because it's less permanent is pretty narrow sighted.

The real issue here is not loosing your treasured photographs, but loosing information we don't want that might be useful for future generations. Analog archives are much more resilient to purposeful destruction/being discarded (think how we can dig up paleolithic rubbish dumps for information about how those people lived) but so long as a digital archive is maintained even using the cheapest and least archivally sound HDDs (and there are much more expensive write-once archival systems claiming to be reliable for 1,000 years+ like the M-DISK, but take that for what it's worth) there's nothing to be concerned about here.

This is a serious question for museum professionals and archivists but nothing for the average photographer to get really worried over.
 
Today it's not about access information or lack of information or loss of information.
Today is about finding relevant information. How many photographs have been shot globally in 2014 ?
One, two or three gazillions? Does it matter if 100 million get lost ? What about nothing gets lost in the future?
98+% of the shots are completely irrelevant 10 years from now, unless for a research project...🙄.

No one cares about weeding out the crap and as storage of a few TB is so small and so cheap nowadays, we fill up the space in our virtual closets to the brim in no time. Once you have 20 boxes with negatives in your space, your spouse will start to ask questions and some day there comes clean-up day. Obviously this necessary clean-up does not happen anymore with hard drives.

Most likely there will be a loss of information in the future but if no one cared to transfer the information onto the next information platform, then obviously this info was not relevant and might get lost, so what😎.

Monday morning rant mode off 😀
 
You know I really don't care which medium outlives the other, as long as in 20 years I still have the choice to shoot film if I want to

I don't understand what's this obsession with permanence, you take your precautions but anything can happen to your archive whether digital or film. Computers can be stolen or crash at anytime, archival mediums become obsolete with time or are simply lost and we've all heard stories about all fires that simply erase everything

Ha! In 50 years time you might just want to look at them and re-live the excitement of youth etc, etc.

OK, I'm an old git but your past is just as important as your future. And it's nice to look back on these things...

Regards, David
 
"Two, a silver print (as well as a color print) will last longer than a digital file without much effort at all. Most old photographs are doing just fine today, 100 years plus on."

Most old photographs are in a landfill or being bought at a rummage sell for the kids to cut up and glue into collages for school projects, or decaying in a box somewhere never to be looked at again.

Our love of film and physical prints tends to make us myopic.

Absolutely.

And - if we moved our point of view, we would think that what will "win in the long run" are photos which are very often looked at, and seriously cared/curated, whatever technology they are coming from.

What will happen to our average "art work" may make us thing of this.
 
And - if we moved our point of view, we would think that what will "win in the long run" are photos which are very often looked at, and seriously cared/curated, whatever technology they are coming from.

What is deemed worthy of curation is volatile and subject to the whims of fashion. The rediscovery of Vivian Maier is one example, but another one is the music of J-S. Bach. Hards as it may be to believe today, for 70 years after his death, it was all but forgotten. It is only after Felix Mendelssohn revived it in 1829 that it found its way back to the firmament of classical music where it deservedly remains.
 
People will keep things just because they're old and interesting, it has nothing to do with 'fashion'. Hard drives will be recyclyed for their gold and silver content.
 

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This is not a digital problem nor is it an analogue problem. It is a human problem and it has been ongoing for thousands and thousands of years.

Mankind has been attempting to come up with ways to preserve information for a very, very long time. There were songs and memory devices. Painting in caves was tried. Story tellers and then writing that proceeded quickly to stone.

Some methods were a little more successful then others but nothing has ever been perfect. Digital storage is only the latest in a very long line. Only time will tell how it succeeds but I kind of think it will be less successful in the long run than stone.
 
This is an archival issue, not a photographic one, since whichever side of the debate one stands on a digital file can be stored using analog technology and negatives/prints can be stored digitally. To switch to medium over the other because it's less permanent is pretty narrow sighted.

The real issue here is not loosing your treasured photographs, but loosing information we don't want that might be useful for future generations. Analog archives are much more resilient to purposeful destruction/being discarded (think how we can dig up paleolithic rubbish dumps for information about how those people lived) but so long as a digital archive is maintained even using the cheapest and least archivally sound HDDs (and there are much more expensive write-once archival systems claiming to be reliable for 1,000 years+ like the M-DISK, but take that for what it's worth) there's nothing to be concerned about here.

This is a serious question for museum professionals and archivists but nothing for the average photographer to get really worried over.

Absolutely false. The average photographer SHOULD be worried about their digital photographs if they are important at all in any way. The VERy first digital photographs of my son, now 13 years old, have somehow managed to become corrupted. Just by sitting on various hard drives, the files no longer open at all. Only about 15 photos have been lost but they are beyond precious. I do have prints of these, but they are ink jet prints and are very much fading away even after this short period of time.

I do religious back ups of my hard drives but since the files became corrupted without me knowing it (I don't look at these photos every day, not even close), the corruption has spread across my 3 different back up drives as I have done my back ups.

Again, digital is NOT archival.
 
I think it should be pointed out that while this is definitely a long-term problem, it is also a short-term problem. Hard drives die without warning, cloud companies can go belly-up (and I think a few have?), and CD/DVDs/Card media and even USB (solid state) can go wonky and fail. Right there and then. My main computer is in the shop because of such failure.

The best of both worlds is probably the most ideal solution for photographs. Digital archiving of film negatives for the digital benefits and of course keeping the negatives stored properly somewhere in case the digital craps out and we can't read those CD/DVDs anymore.

Relying entirely on digital, to me, has always been a gamble as the technology is still upgrading exponentially and is prone to failure. Whereas the technology of film has remained quite steady throughout it's growth, digital continues to eat it's young and grow at a rate whereby upgrading (constantly) is the ONLY way to assure archival quality. Presuming a hard drive or two doesn't die and you don't get a virus.

If I shoot digital, I shoot with the premise in mind that I may lose it in a few years. I tried to find a photograph of my grandma just recently and I think it was lost when I was transferring the files to the new media. Possibly human error but still... this doesn't happen with negatives usually.
 
Hi,

Dare I point out that when formats or anything changes there is an overlap - sometime years - when the old systems and new exist side by side? That is the point when things should be up-dated, not 50 years later.

I had the problem when I got Windows 7 and found a lot of my old accounts couldn't be read but I found software that could read them and save them in the more modern format. And I'm sure everyone reading this will have had a similar problem.

And, when I do leave this world I'm sure my digital photo's won't vanish with me and for a while the laptop, HD's and so on won't vanish or self destruct in sympathy. So there will be a long period when things could be looked at and saved, printed or whatever. And only a tiny fraction of my thousands of photo's need to be saved for a coherent view of the family etc over the years.

Regards, David
 
Hi,

Dare I point out that when formats or anything changes there is an overlap - sometime years - when the old systems and new exist side by side? That is the point when things should be up-dated, not 50 years later.

I had the problem when I got Windows 7 and found a lot of my old accounts couldn't be read but I found software that could read them and save them in the more modern format. And I'm sure everyone reading this will have had a similar problem.

And, when I do leave this world I'm sure my digital photo's won't vanish with me and for a while the laptop, HD's and so on won't vanish or self destruct in sympathy. So there will be a long period when things could be looked at and saved, printed or whatever. And only a tiny fraction of my thousands of photo's need to be saved for a coherent view of the family etc over the years.

Regards, David

And items that were lost over a long period of time and then found? SOL for the most part.
 
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