optikhit
Photo gear player
I hope that I can describe my problem clearly so that you can understand me and help me.
Month ago I have asked questions about my two Kiev 4 whose ribbons were broken. My repairman have repaired the problem of broken ribbons but new problems happened. The shutter behaved abnormally when I took photos outdoor. At lower temperature the shutter speed become slow. The first curtain of shutter refuse to shutdown as quickly as it should be. I can notice
it clearly when the speed at or less than 1/125 second. However in room the camera works fine.
Have you ever experienced such problem before? What happen in the camera?
Thank you for your help.
Month ago I have asked questions about my two Kiev 4 whose ribbons were broken. My repairman have repaired the problem of broken ribbons but new problems happened. The shutter behaved abnormally when I took photos outdoor. At lower temperature the shutter speed become slow. The first curtain of shutter refuse to shutdown as quickly as it should be. I can notice
it clearly when the speed at or less than 1/125 second. However in room the camera works fine.
Have you ever experienced such problem before? What happen in the camera?
Thank you for your help.
physiognomy
Confirmed RF addict...
I haven't had that trouble with my Kiev in the cold weather before, but it sounds like some of the old lubricant in there is hardening & causing the shutter to slow. I have heard of people warming their cameras slightly & exercising the shutter to redistribute old lubricants... Maybe that might help?
Good luck!
Peter
Good luck!
Peter
Xmas
Veteran
Optikhit
It is not unknown that Contax II&III misbehave in cold weather.
If you want to work is cold environments you need to either
- keep the Kiev inside your outer garment so it does not cold soak or
- have it rebuilt with lubriciants which do not stiffen at your ambient temperatures, some bearings can be left completely dry
The Kiev film advance is unlikely to shatter 35mm film, one good point.
The PTFE liquid I normally use is supposed to be ok at -60!
There is a problem that if you let the camera cold soak it will have water condensation outside and inside it when you bring it back into a hot and humid living accomodation, some of my Kievs have lots of rust on their internal steel parts.
Lenses will have water on their internal surfaces.
How cold does it get? I should not ask as we are unlikely to get to freezing point here.
Noel
It is not unknown that Contax II&III misbehave in cold weather.
If you want to work is cold environments you need to either
- keep the Kiev inside your outer garment so it does not cold soak or
- have it rebuilt with lubriciants which do not stiffen at your ambient temperatures, some bearings can be left completely dry
The Kiev film advance is unlikely to shatter 35mm film, one good point.
The PTFE liquid I normally use is supposed to be ok at -60!
There is a problem that if you let the camera cold soak it will have water condensation outside and inside it when you bring it back into a hot and humid living accomodation, some of my Kievs have lots of rust on their internal steel parts.
Lenses will have water on their internal surfaces.
How cold does it get? I should not ask as we are unlikely to get to freezing point here.
Noel
optikhit
Photo gear player
Thank you very much, Peter and Noel. The temperature is not so cold, arround 0 or below. As you said it should a normal thing for Kiev? How to eliminate this problem...I wonder.
Noel, did you use PTFE as lubricant in your Kiev? I know little about that chemicals. BTW, do you know the price for a CONTAX II?
Noel, did you use PTFE as lubricant in your Kiev? I know little about that chemicals. BTW, do you know the price for a CONTAX II?
physiognomy
Confirmed RF addict...
optikhit said:
No worries... I suggest you follow Noel's suggestions & try to keep your camera as warm as possible while out shooting in the cold. Insulating it inside a jacket or case should help quite a bit.
A completed item search on ebay should give you a good idea of the range of prices for a Contax II... CLICK HERE. You might also check out some of the larger US used camera sellers (KEH, B&H etc).
Peter
Xmas
Veteran
Optikhit
The reason I mentioned that Contax were prone to cold weather problems (as well as Kievs) was the Kiev is a productionised version of the Contax, where the Kiev was built to similar photographic standards but in a less time consuming manner, grease is used to hide this process.
The PTFE liquid lub is useful as it does not creep like mineral oils and so does not contimanate optical surfaces later. It is not a real oil but if you flush out most of the old grease with light petroleum liquid and add a droplet to a bush/bearing the PTFE liquid will emulsify the old grease remaining, to form a compromise lubricant.
The PTFE liquid is obtainable from gun shops as it is used as a protective wipe on coating to prevent rust, or in air weapons as a low vapour lube or from hobbist shops Tandy/Radio shack as a wide temperature lube. The PTFE is not a complete replacement in high load bearings.
Ideally one should remove all the old grease (and rust) but this is difficult.
If I have to strip a Kiev I normally flush out as much old grease as possible. This is necessary as lots of the gearing is animated when the shutter fires and any friction from stiff grease, will slow the high speeds or stop the slow speeds. Increasing the spring tension is easier but can damage the spring.
The prices of Contax here vary a lot I've bought ones at 80 GBP in poor condition similar Kiev about 40 GBP, but some Kievs sell 100 to 200 GBP or more, e.g. 1948 models in resonable condition, a excellent condition Contax might be really expensive 500-1000 or more. All these will still take the same photographs.
If you are outside at zero you probably have a dry outer jacket and an inner pocket of this may be enough, you need to avoid condensation in the inner pocket, as well as condensation when you get back home.
The weather here tends to be temperate but wet, as well as condensation we have rain, here it is necessary to use a filter to avoid water creeping through the front elemsnt seals of a J8M by capillary, - as there are no seals. I have had to remove front elements to dry and clean. I am pleased you only have zero to tolerate.
I could not run Kievs unless I was able to strip, repair, re-lube and re-assemble them, all are old and have old grease and old ribbons. Peter also repairs his Kiev.
Noel
The reason I mentioned that Contax were prone to cold weather problems (as well as Kievs) was the Kiev is a productionised version of the Contax, where the Kiev was built to similar photographic standards but in a less time consuming manner, grease is used to hide this process.
The PTFE liquid lub is useful as it does not creep like mineral oils and so does not contimanate optical surfaces later. It is not a real oil but if you flush out most of the old grease with light petroleum liquid and add a droplet to a bush/bearing the PTFE liquid will emulsify the old grease remaining, to form a compromise lubricant.
The PTFE liquid is obtainable from gun shops as it is used as a protective wipe on coating to prevent rust, or in air weapons as a low vapour lube or from hobbist shops Tandy/Radio shack as a wide temperature lube. The PTFE is not a complete replacement in high load bearings.
Ideally one should remove all the old grease (and rust) but this is difficult.
If I have to strip a Kiev I normally flush out as much old grease as possible. This is necessary as lots of the gearing is animated when the shutter fires and any friction from stiff grease, will slow the high speeds or stop the slow speeds. Increasing the spring tension is easier but can damage the spring.
The prices of Contax here vary a lot I've bought ones at 80 GBP in poor condition similar Kiev about 40 GBP, but some Kievs sell 100 to 200 GBP or more, e.g. 1948 models in resonable condition, a excellent condition Contax might be really expensive 500-1000 or more. All these will still take the same photographs.
If you are outside at zero you probably have a dry outer jacket and an inner pocket of this may be enough, you need to avoid condensation in the inner pocket, as well as condensation when you get back home.
The weather here tends to be temperate but wet, as well as condensation we have rain, here it is necessary to use a filter to avoid water creeping through the front elemsnt seals of a J8M by capillary, - as there are no seals. I have had to remove front elements to dry and clean. I am pleased you only have zero to tolerate.
I could not run Kievs unless I was able to strip, repair, re-lube and re-assemble them, all are old and have old grease and old ribbons. Peter also repairs his Kiev.
Noel
optikhit
Photo gear player
Thanks Peter & Noel. Your replies are quite helpful.
Gun shop in China is illegal unfortunately.
Gun shop in China is illegal unfortunately.
raftman
Established
I was just thinking about the effects of cold weather earlier today when I was shooting. It was slightly above 0 degrees C where I was. Although I was shooting with a FED, the shutter seemed to work just fine, but the lens started giving me really bad problems. The focus ring was so hard to turn that half the time I tried turning it, it ended up starting to unscrew the lens.
optikhit
Photo gear player
Such problems I think would be ridiculous for FSU camera. For simple reason that in Russia there would be colder than some other places in the world. Why did not the fabricant take into account these problems during the production?
ed1k
Well-known
They did. How many times your Kiev was repaired and/or relubed? Which grease was used? Normally, manufacturer assumes you will use camera for 5 years, maybe 10, and then trash it away in favour of a few more megapixel or whatever camera. Though Russia isn't the coldest place. Cameras intended for use in far north were often modificated and relubed, often by polar explorers themself.optikhit said:
Eduard.
ErnestoJL
Well-known
optikhit said:Gun shop in China is illegal unfortunately.
You don´t have to do anything illegal. Just look for any industrial lubricants supplier wether in Harbin or in some other city. Usualy PTFE based lube is supplied to be sprayed (small bottles, 500 cc or so).
If temperarures in your area (Harbin, North China) are as low as I´ve read (up to -40 C) then PTFE is perhaps the only solution as it keeps its viscosity at both high and low temperatures.
I´ve been using both my Kiev4 and Contax II at very low temperatures (-30C) without troubles, allways keeping them inside my coat even after relubing them with PTFE, just to avoid sudden temperature changes.
Good luck!
Ernesto
Xmas
Veteran
Optkhit & Ernesto
The PTFE liquid is not just useful for AK-47 and the like it is used in toy air pistols etc. But it is generally available here, and should be obtainable mail order. I'll try and find an outlet. Firearms are difficult here as well but shops do sell the maintenance aids, duck calls, etc.
The temps you guys are quoting dont agree with my sources
Harbin -24 -13
BA 7.4 14
for Winter low highs.
The Harbin highs are colder than we might ever get here.
Ernesto
Is the dog in your avatar ok at low temperatures?
Noel
The PTFE liquid is not just useful for AK-47 and the like it is used in toy air pistols etc. But it is generally available here, and should be obtainable mail order. I'll try and find an outlet. Firearms are difficult here as well but shops do sell the maintenance aids, duck calls, etc.
The temps you guys are quoting dont agree with my sources
Harbin -24 -13
BA 7.4 14
for Winter low highs.
The Harbin highs are colder than we might ever get here.
Ernesto
Is the dog in your avatar ok at low temperatures?
Noel
optikhit
Photo gear player
Hi, thank you very much again. You guys are so lovely and provide so many useful information. I have searched about that material in local stores.
Yes Noel, the temps in Harbin just like that. But my Kiev can't work normally around and below 0. Should be fine in summer ...
Yes Noel, the temps in Harbin just like that. But my Kiev can't work normally around and below 0. Should be fine in summer ...
ErnestoJL
Well-known
One question Optikhit.... (sorry I don´t know your name) the ribbons... were those the original russian replacement parts?.
Sometimes uneven or doubtfull shutter operation in Contax/Kiev are caused by a wrong ribbon material.
Think that the Contax was designed to overcome "any patent rights from Leitz" (thus making a whole different camera than the Leica), so the shutter working principle is far different from the Leitz design. Being the Kiev a Contax clone, things are almost the same, it is, same benefits and same defects.
The design was forced to avoid patent infringement by Zeiss over Leitz, so things may look similar (from the user point of view) but unfortunately not equal.
Hope you can solve your problem, just because any Contax/Kiev is a beautifull, lovely and fun camera to use everyday.
Noel:
Temperatures in BA are as low as -1 C during a cold winter and +38 C (sometimes +) in a d*** hot summer... Juancho was born here...so I hope he´s got used to this...
Cheers
Ernesto
Sometimes uneven or doubtfull shutter operation in Contax/Kiev are caused by a wrong ribbon material.
Think that the Contax was designed to overcome "any patent rights from Leitz" (thus making a whole different camera than the Leica), so the shutter working principle is far different from the Leitz design. Being the Kiev a Contax clone, things are almost the same, it is, same benefits and same defects.
The design was forced to avoid patent infringement by Zeiss over Leitz, so things may look similar (from the user point of view) but unfortunately not equal.
Hope you can solve your problem, just because any Contax/Kiev is a beautifull, lovely and fun camera to use everyday.
Noel:
Temperatures in BA are as low as -1 C during a cold winter and +38 C (sometimes +) in a d*** hot summer... Juancho was born here...so I hope he´s got used to this...
Cheers
Ernesto
optikhit
Photo gear player
Hi Ernesto, thank you very much for your help. You can call me Shutian, my first name. Well it is hard to connect the changes of ribbons and the shutter problem at low temps. Because in room temperature it works fine.
I have search PTFE spray in China and find one. The staff told me there are two kinds of PTFE spray, one is dry and other is grease-type. I assume that in my case I need the grease-type, right? They also told me the spray was made in Germany, Cardon or something. 400ml for about $30. Is that the right?
Best
Shutian
I have search PTFE spray in China and find one. The staff told me there are two kinds of PTFE spray, one is dry and other is grease-type. I assume that in my case I need the grease-type, right? They also told me the spray was made in Germany, Cardon or something. 400ml for about $30. Is that the right?
Best
Shutian
Xmas
Veteran
Shutian
If you are going to do the cold weather treatment yourself, you need to remove the shutter module, R (Russ) Pinchbeck's site has strip instructions.
The shutter is safe to operate as a separate module, with great care, the flash synchro cable can be left connected. You have to operate the shutter after repeatedly wetting each bearing or bush with petrol cigarette lighter fluid, from an artists painter brush, until all old grease has been removed, (has worked itself out) and been washed away by repeated petrol applications. One would not be able to get 100% of the old grease out you need to remove 90% or so. It will take some time to do this, as the camera is all bearings and escapments (clock work parts). Dont smoke as you do this... Try and not let the petrol get on to leather of camera outer, or the leather of the shutter slats, the shutter is held together by leather ribbon and silk ribbon, the silk connects the two separate metal blinds, the leather connects the individual metal slats.
Then you spray liquid PTFE into a small container and use a pin or dentist tooth pick to apply a small droplet of liquid to (each) bush. The PTFE liquid compound will emulsify the remining grease to form a 'compound' which should be good to -10 if you are lucky. (The PTFE grease could be used for the lens focus heliciod but this will run dry, as the brass metal is self lubricating, the grease is too thick (is too heavy) for the shutter parts, it will make the heliciod more difficult to turn as well.) If you cannot get PTFE liquid then thin oil e.g. for sewing machine use is not as good but better than wax grease. The oil tends to migrate and will stiffen more rapidly than PTFE.
I do this PTFE treatement and Enersto seems to as well. This is necessary to operate at normal 10c temperatures (normal in UK) with the 70 to 40 year old grease in Contax or Kiev. A shutter dissasemble and clean would take ages. Several of my Kievs do operate at 0c but this is exposed to internal condensation and rust, the PTFE or thin oil will protect to a degree against rust.
As well as the shutter the self timer and the shutter release can be treated this will make the trigger action of the shutter better.
Russ cautions that while the shutter module is separate you have to avoid letting the shafts of the shutter blinds fall out - sticky tape is useful for this.
Keeping the camera under an outer jasket is necessary, for rain or cold, this may be the simplest solution, 'winterising' a camera is not cheap, if you cannot do it yourself, and you will still need to keep it under a jacket, to avoid condensation. It is hard on a camera if it has internal condensation when brought indoors from cold outdoors. The Kiev is good at low temperatures as the film path is not kinked, providing the clutch drive is ok the cold film should not shatter.
One does get good photos in winter.
I wish my Mandarin (or other dialect) was as good as your English, this not Ernesto's 1st language either.
Noel
If you are going to do the cold weather treatment yourself, you need to remove the shutter module, R (Russ) Pinchbeck's site has strip instructions.
The shutter is safe to operate as a separate module, with great care, the flash synchro cable can be left connected. You have to operate the shutter after repeatedly wetting each bearing or bush with petrol cigarette lighter fluid, from an artists painter brush, until all old grease has been removed, (has worked itself out) and been washed away by repeated petrol applications. One would not be able to get 100% of the old grease out you need to remove 90% or so. It will take some time to do this, as the camera is all bearings and escapments (clock work parts). Dont smoke as you do this... Try and not let the petrol get on to leather of camera outer, or the leather of the shutter slats, the shutter is held together by leather ribbon and silk ribbon, the silk connects the two separate metal blinds, the leather connects the individual metal slats.
Then you spray liquid PTFE into a small container and use a pin or dentist tooth pick to apply a small droplet of liquid to (each) bush. The PTFE liquid compound will emulsify the remining grease to form a 'compound' which should be good to -10 if you are lucky. (The PTFE grease could be used for the lens focus heliciod but this will run dry, as the brass metal is self lubricating, the grease is too thick (is too heavy) for the shutter parts, it will make the heliciod more difficult to turn as well.) If you cannot get PTFE liquid then thin oil e.g. for sewing machine use is not as good but better than wax grease. The oil tends to migrate and will stiffen more rapidly than PTFE.
I do this PTFE treatement and Enersto seems to as well. This is necessary to operate at normal 10c temperatures (normal in UK) with the 70 to 40 year old grease in Contax or Kiev. A shutter dissasemble and clean would take ages. Several of my Kievs do operate at 0c but this is exposed to internal condensation and rust, the PTFE or thin oil will protect to a degree against rust.
As well as the shutter the self timer and the shutter release can be treated this will make the trigger action of the shutter better.
Russ cautions that while the shutter module is separate you have to avoid letting the shafts of the shutter blinds fall out - sticky tape is useful for this.
Keeping the camera under an outer jasket is necessary, for rain or cold, this may be the simplest solution, 'winterising' a camera is not cheap, if you cannot do it yourself, and you will still need to keep it under a jacket, to avoid condensation. It is hard on a camera if it has internal condensation when brought indoors from cold outdoors. The Kiev is good at low temperatures as the film path is not kinked, providing the clutch drive is ok the cold film should not shatter.
One does get good photos in winter.
I wish my Mandarin (or other dialect) was as good as your English, this not Ernesto's 1st language either.
Noel
ErnestoJL
Well-known
Shutian:
With a bit of patience and Noel´s explanation, I´m sure you can enjoy your Kiev very soon.
I used both the Kiev and the Contax during a short winter trip to the south of my country, a place where winter lows are really low. Both passed the test, allways kept covered by my coat. So, if you do things carefully, the results will be worth the trouble.
Good luck!!
Cheers
Ernesto
With a bit of patience and Noel´s explanation, I´m sure you can enjoy your Kiev very soon.
I used both the Kiev and the Contax during a short winter trip to the south of my country, a place where winter lows are really low. Both passed the test, allways kept covered by my coat. So, if you do things carefully, the results will be worth the trouble.
Good luck!!
Cheers
Ernesto
Xmas
Veteran
ErnestoJL said:
Did you take Juancho with you to the south for your sub zero Kiev test trip?
Noel
ErnestoJL
Well-known
Noel:
No, I didn´t take him with me, nor it was a camera test run.
It was a six day trip just to take pictures for an University project.
Besides there wasn´t time enough to drive 2800 km with him in the backseat.
Just to make a good comparison, my 1975 Fujica ST 801 spent two years in an AR Army base at the Antarctic (the owner from him I got it, took lots of pictures outside the shelters) and the camera survived, and still works.
Regards.
Ernesto
No, I didn´t take him with me, nor it was a camera test run.
It was a six day trip just to take pictures for an University project.
Besides there wasn´t time enough to drive 2800 km with him in the backseat.
Just to make a good comparison, my 1975 Fujica ST 801 spent two years in an AR Army base at the Antarctic (the owner from him I got it, took lots of pictures outside the shelters) and the camera survived, and still works.
Regards.
Ernesto
optikhit
Photo gear player
Hi, Noel and Ernesto, thanks a lot. i have order a PTFE spray which is now on the way. I hope it can help.
Noel: can you speak Chinese? hehe.. so maybe we can communicate using Chinese. Ernesto: i have added you in the MSN, but it should be difficult that we meet for the time lag.
Best
Shutian
Noel: can you speak Chinese? hehe.. so maybe we can communicate using Chinese. Ernesto: i have added you in the MSN, but it should be difficult that we meet for the time lag.
Best
Shutian