ISO
Established
hello. I have a problem with my Konica S2. The shutter is stuck. I dissembled the lens and I cleaned the aperture and shutter blades with Isopropanol as suggested. The shutter and aperture works fine, well not really. As long as there is some liquid on the blades they work fine. As soon as the Isopropanol is dry, after 3 minutes, the blades will not work anymore. :bang: A bit of liquid and they work fine again. And so on... I think because of the cleaning I removed all lubricant on the blades. Is there normally lubricant on the blades ? What would you suggest to put on the blades ? I read that some person use graphite powder ? I this the lubricant to go for or are there other lubricants you would suggest ? Is the graphite powder always the same or do you have to watch for something when you buying some ? Thanks. ISO
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aizan
Veteran
they should run dry, maybe with some graphite powder rubbed on and wiped off.
what kind of graphite powder isn't just graphite powder?
what kind of graphite powder isn't just graphite powder?
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ISO
Established
Thanks. It looks like they will not run dry, so I need some lubricant. For the graphite powder I read about "coarse" powder and "fine" powder. But if I go for a lubricant probably "fine" graphite powder should be the best !? Any alternatives to lubricant the blades ?
rbeverag
Member
sticky blades
sticky blades
The only reason your shutter and aperture work when wet, is because the alcohol is acting as a temporary lubricant. Remove the lens elements and soak the whole shutter/diaphragm assembly in Ronsonol or other lighter fluid. Operate the shutter and diaphragm while wet. The idea is to flush out all the old dried lube and accumulated dirt and dust. The shutter and diaphragm should work best when bone dry.
The best way is complete disassembly of the shutter diaphragm assemble but that can be difficult the first time. Practice on a junker and search the internet for stripdown basics on leaf shutter cameras.
Roger WB
sticky blades
The only reason your shutter and aperture work when wet, is because the alcohol is acting as a temporary lubricant. Remove the lens elements and soak the whole shutter/diaphragm assembly in Ronsonol or other lighter fluid. Operate the shutter and diaphragm while wet. The idea is to flush out all the old dried lube and accumulated dirt and dust. The shutter and diaphragm should work best when bone dry.
The best way is complete disassembly of the shutter diaphragm assemble but that can be difficult the first time. Practice on a junker and search the internet for stripdown basics on leaf shutter cameras.
Roger WB
ISO
Established
Thanks. Ok I will try that. So there is no need for graphite powder !? On more question. You said remove all lens elements. Will Isopropanol "hurt" the lens ? Or is it just the idea to come from all sides to the blades. I still have the rear lens element on this camera. To remove it, it looks a bit difficult even if I have the tools, but there is also cables to disolder inside the mechanics of the lens. And it looks like I have to take all mechanics out as well. So I would like to try this repair without removing the rear lens elemts, when you tell me that it will not be a problem if Isopropanol touches the glass. Thanks.
clintock
Galleryless Gearhead
Try letting the camera sit for a day or two in a warm place like a window ledge in the sun. Isopropanol contains water, and also cools the parts as it evaporates, so perhaps condensation is present between the leaves, causing them to cling.
I have personally never harmed a lens element with Isopropanol, but it may be possible just the same. I prefer to use 'denatured' alchohol as it contains no water.
Naptha (ronson fuel) is usually what I think of as the thing to flush shutters rather than alchohol. It takes a while longer to evaporate though, but it does all eventually go.
I have personally never harmed a lens element with Isopropanol, but it may be possible just the same. I prefer to use 'denatured' alchohol as it contains no water.
Naptha (ronson fuel) is usually what I think of as the thing to flush shutters rather than alchohol. It takes a while longer to evaporate though, but it does all eventually go.
aizan
Veteran
isopropanol won't hurt your lens. it's used to clean lenses, right? graphite isn't necessary at all.
http://www.feuerbacher.net/photo/frame.html?repair/KonicaAutoS2/KonicaAutoS2.html~Main
where are you on dismantling the lens unit? as long as you can get to the shutter, looks like you don't need to remove the rear lens element.
http://www.feuerbacher.net/photo/frame.html?repair/KonicaAutoS2/KonicaAutoS2.html~Main
where are you on dismantling the lens unit? as long as you can get to the shutter, looks like you don't need to remove the rear lens element.
ISO
Established
Thanks for all the answers so far. Yes, that link is great, thanks. The shutter blades look quite clean now. Still there is the problem that they will not function after a while. Alos, at the moment I am able to close aperture without problem, but the blades do not open without help. So maybe it is really the water of Isopropanol and I will leave the camera in the sun for today. If this is not working, I will go on step further and put the aperture selection mechanism away from the body and give it a bath in Isopropanol. By the way the shutter mechanism works quite smooth now, so it was good to do some cleaning anyway. Should I get some oil here to keep it smooth ? I like the Konica S2 a lot and this one is in still in nice condition. It would be great if I get it working again. I will keep you updated. Thanks.
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clintock
Galleryless Gearhead
I too find it a challenge to get shutter blades free of oil so they can move right.
The problem is, when solvent is added, the oil-solvent mixture permits free movement, but once the volatile liquids flash off, the oil is still right there where it was between the blades, maybe even worse, as the solvent and movement of the blades while wet spreads the oily film even more widely between the leaves..
The way I succeed is to put a few drops on, then carefully mop it up with cotton buds(Q-Tips), over and over using many fresh ones, careful to not catch cotton on the blades. Only by mopping the oily solvent solution away from the shutter blades can one really get them clean and oil free.
If you really want to try graphite, a book I have says to put some lighter fluid in a spoon or other very small container, perhaps a film container, just a few ml, then add some fine graphite powder to that, mix with a toothpick and apply the drop of mixture to the mechanism. The lighter fluid will wick into the works carrying the suspended graphite with it. I have a Braun Super Paxette that may be about to get the graphite experiment on the blades, I think one of the previous owners put a drop of sewing machine oil directly on the shutter (the shutter is exposed once the lens is off on this model).
If you don't already have a can of zippo lighter fluid it really is an essential tool for camera work, the teeny little nozzle on top is worth it alone, not to mention the ideal cleaning character of the fluid itself.
The problem is, when solvent is added, the oil-solvent mixture permits free movement, but once the volatile liquids flash off, the oil is still right there where it was between the blades, maybe even worse, as the solvent and movement of the blades while wet spreads the oily film even more widely between the leaves..
The way I succeed is to put a few drops on, then carefully mop it up with cotton buds(Q-Tips), over and over using many fresh ones, careful to not catch cotton on the blades. Only by mopping the oily solvent solution away from the shutter blades can one really get them clean and oil free.
If you really want to try graphite, a book I have says to put some lighter fluid in a spoon or other very small container, perhaps a film container, just a few ml, then add some fine graphite powder to that, mix with a toothpick and apply the drop of mixture to the mechanism. The lighter fluid will wick into the works carrying the suspended graphite with it. I have a Braun Super Paxette that may be about to get the graphite experiment on the blades, I think one of the previous owners put a drop of sewing machine oil directly on the shutter (the shutter is exposed once the lens is off on this model).
If you don't already have a can of zippo lighter fluid it really is an essential tool for camera work, the teeny little nozzle on top is worth it alone, not to mention the ideal cleaning character of the fluid itself.
ISO
Established
The good news. My Konica S2 works again (for the moment at least). But what a operation. A doctor can save 15 lives in that time. As described above it is not really easy the get the blades clean. I think the lighter fluid was much a better choice at the end than the Isopropanol (or maybe it was the mix of both..?). I am sure I pressed the shutter 2000 times. Also used about 75 Q Tips, in a pint of Isopropanol. Also I was not the easiest way to put the lens back togheter. Anyway I saved the life of my S2 and did some slides this afternoon. It is good to have this friend back.
Thanks to all the above for helping me and giving information for future readers. At the end I can say that there is no lubricant needed for the blades. But if I would have had some graphite powder in the house I would probably tried it out.
Thanks to all the above for helping me and giving information for future readers. At the end I can say that there is no lubricant needed for the blades. But if I would have had some graphite powder in the house I would probably tried it out.
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PeterW
Peter Wallage
Hi ISO,
So glad you were persuaded not to use graphite powder. I know it's mentioned in one of Tomosy's repair books but I've got two cameras with Compur shutters where I had to strip the shutter right back to individual blades to get rid of a mix of old congealled graphite powder and oil which had gummed them up.
PeterW
So glad you were persuaded not to use graphite powder. I know it's mentioned in one of Tomosy's repair books but I've got two cameras with Compur shutters where I had to strip the shutter right back to individual blades to get rid of a mix of old congealled graphite powder and oil which had gummed them up.
PeterW
dmr
Registered Abuser
A couple years ago when I did my GIII resurrection a guy I know gave me the remainder of a tube of a "graphite suspension" which he uses for "clocks and locks." He was saying that you typically use a lot of it on a lock, and very little of it on a clock.
I never had to use it, the application of Ronsonol got things working quite well.
This stuff (I can get the brand and number if anybody wants it when I am home) supposedly goes on wet, but the solvent dries to leave just the fine graphite powder. He said that for a clock, put the smallest drop you can on the end of a needle and use that to very carefully apply the stuff, as very little will go a long way.
I haven't used it yet, but I'm thinking of taking apart the Mamiya and possibly using it, as it's now starting to hesitate on shutter speeds lower than 1/8.
I never had to use it, the application of Ronsonol got things working quite well.
This stuff (I can get the brand and number if anybody wants it when I am home) supposedly goes on wet, but the solvent dries to leave just the fine graphite powder. He said that for a clock, put the smallest drop you can on the end of a needle and use that to very carefully apply the stuff, as very little will go a long way.
I haven't used it yet, but I'm thinking of taking apart the Mamiya and possibly using it, as it's now starting to hesitate on shutter speeds lower than 1/8.
Shinmeister
Newbie
ISO said:
Hi
I have the same problem (stuck shutter) and for the life of me I can't get the lens dismantled.
I have read several articles about this repair but I cant find a way to remove the name plate from the lens...can someone please advise what i should be doing???
Muchas gracias
ErnestoJL
Well-known
As Clintock said, this is your problem, the tiny oil surface that remains on the blades after all volatile fluid is gone.
I used a kind of lighter fluid (also tried Ronsonol) and it worked very well. After the Ronsonol bath, I placed the shutter assy inside isopropyl alcohol for a while, and later dried the whole shutter using low pressure air. If it doesn´t work the first time, try another time.
Cheers
Ernesto
I used a kind of lighter fluid (also tried Ronsonol) and it worked very well. After the Ronsonol bath, I placed the shutter assy inside isopropyl alcohol for a while, and later dried the whole shutter using low pressure air. If it doesn´t work the first time, try another time.
Cheers
Ernesto
IK13
Established
Shinmeister said:
Once you unscrew the retaining ring (be careful - it feels like aluminum and bends very easy), the name plate should come off. Nothing else is holding it, but the two wires for the CdS cell.
literiter
Well-known
My experience is with compur or protor type shutters. I have worked, with some success on Super Ikontas, Kodak Retinas, and FSU Moskvas. I have some Moment shutters from a Moskva 2, 4 and 5 that I tore apart and cleaned thoroughly. I figured that if I buggered it up I wouldn't care too much. A shutter from a old Moskva 2 is the best I have now. The next would be the Prontor on a Certo 6. Timing is precise and repeatable.
I have tried the graphite trick a few times with some success but I feel it is not the true way to free up a sticky shutter. I cannot see that it would hurt anything but the graphite makes tracks on the shutter blades.
I soaked shutters in naptha, lighter fluid, and some really toxic stuff for degreasing clutches and break linings. (Naturally the most horrible seems to always work the best.) I've taken the safer way I think, by soaking in lighter fluid, then isopropyl alcohol often working the shutter gently. I then dry under a small piece of clean cloth, occasionally working the shutter. A hair dryer helps a bit too, but I would be concerned about fire. ( All this has been mentioned earlier, whch gives me some confidence to continue. Thank you!)
I have found that many times a mere soaking is not the solution and complete disassembly is in order. (I really don't like this however.) I removed the slow speed timer assy. from a Moskva 2 and carefully cleaned and lubricated it with "Nyoil" oil. I then manually cleaned all the shutter blades. There was stuff in there from a long time ago. This is my best shutter oddly enough. (No lens, no body, just this really good shutter.)
I have tried the graphite trick a few times with some success but I feel it is not the true way to free up a sticky shutter. I cannot see that it would hurt anything but the graphite makes tracks on the shutter blades.
I soaked shutters in naptha, lighter fluid, and some really toxic stuff for degreasing clutches and break linings. (Naturally the most horrible seems to always work the best.) I've taken the safer way I think, by soaking in lighter fluid, then isopropyl alcohol often working the shutter gently. I then dry under a small piece of clean cloth, occasionally working the shutter. A hair dryer helps a bit too, but I would be concerned about fire. ( All this has been mentioned earlier, whch gives me some confidence to continue. Thank you!)
I have found that many times a mere soaking is not the solution and complete disassembly is in order. (I really don't like this however.) I removed the slow speed timer assy. from a Moskva 2 and carefully cleaned and lubricated it with "Nyoil" oil. I then manually cleaned all the shutter blades. There was stuff in there from a long time ago. This is my best shutter oddly enough. (No lens, no body, just this really good shutter.)
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literiter
Well-known
To add:
I would not try to lubricate the blades themselves except perhaps to put a tiny bit of graphite / lighter fluid mixture on the pivots.
Vincent
I would not try to lubricate the blades themselves except perhaps to put a tiny bit of graphite / lighter fluid mixture on the pivots.
Vincent
Crayguns
crayguns
Lubing apeture blades
Lubing apeture blades
I use Dri Slide. It comes in a plastic bottle with a small dia steel tube applicator. I often use a tooth pick for precision placement. This is a super thin liquid. The solvent carrier evaporates and leaves a film of grafite type stuff. Take GREAT CARE not to let it over-run the target.
I get this at motorcycle shops. It's good for MC cables also.
Lubing apeture blades
I use Dri Slide. It comes in a plastic bottle with a small dia steel tube applicator. I often use a tooth pick for precision placement. This is a super thin liquid. The solvent carrier evaporates and leaves a film of grafite type stuff. Take GREAT CARE not to let it over-run the target.
I get this at motorcycle shops. It's good for MC cables also.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
ISO said:
Sorry, but I can't even begin to tell you how bad an idea this is.
1. Your shutter blades are sticking because you have not got all the gunk off, not because you need more. There is NEVER any lubricant on ANY camera's blades, as it comes from the factory. The ONLY time you ever put lubricant on a camera's shutter blades is if the blades are corroded and pitted. Graphite from a soft pencil is then rubbed into the pits to fill them and then you wipe all the loose stuff off. You do NOT use powdered graphite on a camera -- ever.
2. You use naptha (lighter fluid) for cleaning shutter blades, not alcohol, and ESPECIALLY not isopropanol (rubbing alcohol). Isopropanol, sold in grocery stores and drug stores, will always contain at least 10% other stuff (often including oils and balsams -- and sometimes it is 30%). When it dries out, the sticky gunk in the alcohol is deposited on the blades, making them stick again. Unlike rubbing alcohol, naptha leaves no residue when it evaporates. I would dearly love to get my hands around the throat of the guy who started the rumor that rubbing alcohol is good for cleaning cameras. As a camera collector, he has caused me no end of problems.
3. If you really want to use alcohol, go to a hardware store and get 100% denatured alcohol. You can get a can of naptha there too though, and that works MUCH better as a solvent for removing oils and greases (the crud sticking your blades together).
4. NEVER allow any kind of powdered dry lubricant to get anywhere near your camera -- not powdered graphite, not WD-40, and not anything else. The stuff gets everywhere; it will NOT stay where you put it. Every time you trip the shutter, you'd be spraying bits of powder all over the inside of your camera -- and most of it will seem to go where you don't want it to. You might as well dump a can of baby powder in there.
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