M-Leicas in "extreme" conditions?

[MartinP]

Double-Negative, PMU wrote that the condensation is inside the viewfinder - not on the outside. As near as I can tell (my Finnish is poor) this was also missed by 3JS in his Finnish text. It looks as though the humidity is really inside the v/f assembly already, and is simply condensing out when the outer v/f lenses start cooling down. The cooling down process would be most rapid when it is sploshed with cold rain/snow, instead of (relatively) gradually changing temperature in cold, dry air.

A follow-up question is how can one speed up the drying of the inside of an M top-cover ? Putting the whole thing in a desiccator will probably eventually work, but is not very handy from day to day. Others have had no problem using the cameras in the rain etc occasionally, so it does appear to not be a direct leak problem in the design.

At least on the M3, about the only part that could be removable to get some ventilation in to the top-cover might be the eyepiece lens. but does that remove from the outside, and in a manner that will not result in other problems ?

 

[Tom A]

On the M3/M2 - if you unscrew the "ocular" eyepiece at the back it does expose the inside of the housing. It could help drying out the interior of the viewfinder. You can do it to a MP also, but you need a new seal for the eyepiece. The biggest risk with the moisture in the finder is partly that it will deposit on the prisms and mirrors and partly simply rust on springs and shafts. The other problem you can encounter is that in extreme cold weather, the residual moisture in the finder mechanism can simply freeze up and in worst case scenario split a prism.
As for cold weather shooting, I have used M4P's in -54 C!!!!! Thats cold and your biggest problem is film breaking when you rewind. All controls get sluggish to (and so do you) - but if the shutter slows down thats fine as the film drops in speed too!
I was shooting with Hasselblads and M4P's and the Compur shutter in the Blad lenses slowed down dramatically - the Leica's only about a stop. The temperature was low enough that the metal on the Hasselblad's body shrunk enough to stop the film advance from working - the gears simply did not mesh. I reloaded everything once it was warmed up (plastic bags and a Chevy Suburban on full heater blast!). Lost 2 films to "frost bite" - it simply splintered into small pieces.
I have seen the result of "chock" therapy on lenses. A friend took a Summarit inside from -40C into a warm cabin. Exit one element and most of the coating on the front. It is now a very soft draw Summarit. The cracked element was replaced, but the coating was left as it was.

 

[MartinP]

Yikes . . . I thought minus 28C was cool enough !

The eyepiece simply unscrews I suppose ? On my M3 it looks a very plain ring, with no special-spanner shapes on it, so that would imply using a bit of rubber sheet (a cleaned piece of old inner-tube perhaps) to get a grip - or is there an alternate clever plan ?

Thank you for the information Tom. It will be potentially very useful for me next Winter, or even this year for pmu.

 

[maddoc]

Tom,

that is very interesting ! M4-P working down to -54 degrees Celsius 🙂 The story about the Hasselblad made me thinking about the Apollo mission ... Were the cameras prepared to work under the harsh temperature conditions on the moon ?

Cheers,

Gabor

 

[Tom A]

One of the M4P's was "cold weather" prepped. The lubricants are removed and substituted with graphite. You either have to have them re-lubed or simply keep it for cold weather jobs. Interestingly both seemed to work fine at the time, whether it was cold prepped or not.
The Hasselblads used for the NASA missions were all custom built with "dry" lubricants and matched tolerances for cold, extremely cold environment.
Below -45C you start to have problems with metal changing properties. What used to be a nice little flatspring, is now a brittle piece of metal and will most likely shatter or break when forced.
Case in point - One my Super Achromat's (250f5.6 high resolution lens for Blad's). I was using outside for some site work and the metal retaining springs shrunk sufficiently to turn the flouride chrystal element into fine dust!!!!! The other one worked, though the shutter was very erratic.
A couple of my Rapidwinder customers are truly cold weather guys. One did a story from the South Pole (In their winter - which makes -54C seem like a sunny beach!) and another one lives in the Canadian Arctic. Both are M4P users by the way. "Oh well, the batteries dies anyway below -60 so why have that stuff in the camera" was one comment.

 

[maddoc]

Wow !! So the rapid winder used in the very cold conditions, are these also specialized (lubricants ?) On a side note, a rapid winder is used for fast film advancing but in cold conditions, the film could easily break ... 😕

But I am really glad to know that the M4-P can hold up under these conditions. True, the electronic of a metered body would have hard times, especially the batteries....

Cheers,

Gabor

 

[Tom A]

Shooters use Rapidwinders in cold condition because they can operate them with heavy gloves and the added height 1/2" - makes it easier to hold. The other trick is that with heavy gloves on, you rest the lever in your left hand and simply pull the camera to the right! Sounds weird but it works. This way you don't have to "fumble" for a grip after having used the advance lever on top.
I also used to make a shutter speed dial with a small lever on it that you could operate by feel and with gloves. Made it for M2/M3/M4/M4P's and 6 for M6 (which were all picked up by some South Pole expedition for their M6's (This was in 1988).
As for advancing with the Rapidwinder. You control the speed and tension with it. An electric motor will start and pull the film at a set speed and it doesn't care if the film feels stiff - it just rips it apart! Battery packs do "croak" at extremely low temperatures and wont hold charge either.
I did not really need special lubes on the Rapidwinder. They are all made to run "dry" if needed. The lubrication just adds a bit of smoothness to it.
I do shoot a handful of rolls with each winder before it goes out and the first roll is always done without lubrication as that "sets" the drive and lever assembly. The I take it apart and check everything and lubricate it and run at least one more roll through it.

 

[maddoc]

Thanks again for the detailed explanation, Tom ! I have heard about your "special" shutter dial but never seen a photo of it. Do you have a photo on your we site ? Also, are you still making these shutter dials or were they produced only once ?

Cheers,

Gabor

 

[3js]

Double-Negative, PMU wrote that the condensation is inside the viewfinder - not on the outside. As near as I can tell (my Finnish is poor) this was also missed by 3JS in his Finnish text.

Nope, it was not. I told him to check his finder with a flashlight for a inner dampness damage. Normal undamaged finder is clear.

Btw, a nice hijack, fellows.

 

[MartinP]

😱
3js, thank you for correcting me ! In about thirty years I might have sorted out my basic Finnish. I can only use the feeble excuse that "they all speak english" and, most of the year, I usually need only my english, french and dutch.

Checking for damp-related damage like that is practical and sensible.

 

[Tom A]

😱
In about thirty years I might have sorted out my basic Finnish.

I suspect that it takes longer than that! I have been married to a Finn for 41 years and lived in Helsinki for a couple of years. I did learn how to order a beer, understand what stuff costs and general courtesies - but that is about it. It is one of the most complex languages I know of! Occasionally I harbored the suspicion that they made it up on the spot, just to confuse swedes visiting and living there!

 

[Rafael]

Shooters use Rapidwinders in cold condition because they can operate them with heavy gloves and the added height 1/2" - makes it easier to hold.

I have never contemplated that use for a Rapidwinder. Very interesting...

I have never taken photographs in the extreme conditions that Tom has been discussing. But I have often worked in temperatures ranging between -25 and -30 celsius. The M4 and M6 have never missed a beat. But I have often lost feeling in my fingers! Which brings me back to that idea about big gloves and a rapidwinder... 😉

 

[Sofa King]

I have two M6s and have shot them in fairly heavy rain, humidity, and today in 20 degrees fahrenheit and snowing. The cameras have never missed a beat. Never fogged up unless I accidently BREATHED on the viewfinder. Never had problems with anything. However, today the film snapped while winding on and I found myself about five shots past where the end of the roll should have been. I figured I hadn't loaded it correctly because I didn't feel it break and it was evident that it wasn't rewinding. I ended up opening up the camera to find a full reel of film. D'oh. I'll bring it to a lab and see what they can salvage.

But yeah. I've definitely put my two M6s through their paces and never had a single problem.

 

[historicist]

I've had this fogging in the viewfinder too. I was in in a torrential downpour, something like a monsoon, for about half an hour with my M4 and nothing to protect it (it wasn't especially cold). The viewfinder fogged up to the point of unusability and took a couple of days to become clear again.

 

[chrishayton]

Bit of an old topic but it nearly answers my question. Took my m4-p up ben nevis the other day ( was nice when we set off, but got worse) Kept in under my waterproof coat and stayed pretty dry, however it was a bit moist and now the viewfinder has a slight bit of condensation. What is the best way to get it dry? (its currently in my airing cupboard)

 

[maddoc]

Use a medium sized pack of silica-gel drying pack, a large zip-lock plastic bag (as used to store food in the freezer) and keep your camera (WITHOUT any film or leather parts) with body cap removed together with that dry-pack over night in that bag. The next day, the condensation should be gone.

Bit of an old topic but it nearly answers my question. Took my m4-p up ben nevis the other day ( was nice when we set off, but got worse) Kept in under my waterproof coat and stayed pretty dry, however it was a bit moist and now the viewfinder has a slight bit of condensation. What is the best way to get it dry? (its currently in my airing cupboard)

 

[next1]

Talking about a drying pack I heard that some cat litter (fresh) into a cotton sock (clean) works great!

 

[Dralowid]

Small boat sailing.

I use a UV filter with a little grease on the threads and also put a thin layer on the lens flange to seal it to the camera.

M6TTL Totally immersed for thankfully only a scond or two in salt water.

Got it back home, film just about OK, hardly wet inside. Cleaned the camera as best possible with freshwater and kitchen towel. Removed battery. Put body and lens in oven on low setting with door open a tad...

That was four years ago. Everything still fine.

Michael