Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
No worries, most of the time it is due to my ESL 😱.
M10 images leak
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uhoh7
Veteran
+1 I did not expect so much improvement in ISO. I predict they will sell every one they can produce.
What people say in forums is often very misleading. I watched many people trash Sony every day for two months leading to release of A7 and then buy one.
It's not a "must have" any more than 240 was over the M9. Many never got a 240. At base ISO there is no reason, really except some little features, in fact M9 is fantastic right now up to 400, and it's images give nothing away to 240, and some lenses like 28 cron and 50 lux still look better in most M9 shots than 240. But nevertheless the 240 was very hard to get for two years. I don't think that will happen, because selling them is the whole idea and where the money is made, so I'd bet the supply lines are really up and running.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Leica Blog has four stories today about M10. Three are field reports and one interview with M10 project team!
http://blog.leica-camera.com/2017/01/18/trip-romania-leica-m10/
http://blog.leica-camera.com/2017/01/18/looking-back-move-forward/
http://blog.leica-camera.com/2017/01/18/off-cuba-leica-m10/
http://blog.leica-camera.com/2017/01/18/new-camera-new-city-brilliant-always/
http://blog.leica-camera.com/2017/01/18/trip-romania-leica-m10/
http://blog.leica-camera.com/2017/01/18/looking-back-move-forward/
http://blog.leica-camera.com/2017/01/18/off-cuba-leica-m10/
http://blog.leica-camera.com/2017/01/18/new-camera-new-city-brilliant-always/
jsrockit
Moderator
Huss
Veteran
Lss
Well-known
I like what I see, too. I could justify 10-20% more for the same camera with well-implemented 4k video if I was able to afford the camera in the first place. So unfortunately that's only an imaginary loss for Leica at this point.
raid
Dad Photographer
Lucky you! I will read the report. Thanks. Google Translate can do the translation, if needed.
Emile de Leon
Well-known
M's were slow to begin with...way behind the curve..
2 stops is not a big deal to me...if I wanted speed..I would just get an A7s...for a fraction of the cost..and it has a silent shutter and video too..or whip out the Noct f1..
Leica people make so big a deal out of little stuff..that others have done years before..for less cash..
But this cam is perfect for stills shooters..but.. don't look to much improvement in the future for the M..as this is about as far as they can take it..in its current form..w/o adding video..or changing it completely....
Maybe the last of the line..the m10..
Of course they are going to stretch it out as long as they can..they will eventually have a MD model...and a mono...in the smaller body style..and then video..
But I think..this is it for the M...kinda like the M6..its perfect the way it is..nothing more to do w/it..except minor developments at best..
Enjoy your m10's..!
I would like one..and may eventually buy...but just for the smaller body...and that's it..
______
Well-known
I am in San Francisco for a couple of weeks. I went down to the Leica store to see the Henri Cartier-Bresson exhibit, which was just fabulous. Approximately 60 vintage silver gelatin prints - the most I had ever seen at one time - all of them iconic. If sharpness is a bourgeois concept, most of them are pretty darn bourgeois. But of course it is the composition that is knockout. The prints were presented beautifully in uniform 16x20 frames with 8-ply mats and generous borders.The prints were for sale - $25,000-$35,000 each - so it was a roughly a two million dollar exhibit. Not to be missed.
I also had a chance to handle the M10. It felt great in the hands. The focus and handling were silky, and the shutter was a barely audible click. Quieter to my ear than a film M. Framelines were bright, perhaps a little too bright. I don't know if there is a menu item to dial them back a bit. All in all, Leica really nailed it with this one. If money were no object, I would have walked out with one in a heartbeat. However, money is always an object. Fortunately, I left my credit card at home. Those that succumb to the temptation will be rewarded, perhaps not with better photos, but with a wonderful shooting experience. Priceless.
I also had a chance to handle the M10. It felt great in the hands. The focus and handling were silky, and the shutter was a barely audible click. Quieter to my ear than a film M. Framelines were bright, perhaps a little too bright. I don't know if there is a menu item to dial them back a bit. All in all, Leica really nailed it with this one. If money were no object, I would have walked out with one in a heartbeat. However, money is always an object. Fortunately, I left my credit card at home. Those that succumb to the temptation will be rewarded, perhaps not with better photos, but with a wonderful shooting experience. Priceless.
uhoh7
Veteran
He's the only one, alright 😉
Erwin Puts is one of the last great independent voices, not in anyone's pocket. Not worried who will send him a camera. He has forgot more about Leica than Sean Reid will ever know. Compared to Puts' extensive work in testing optics, Reid and Lloyd are hobbyists. Based on his writing he knows far more about digital imaging than they do.
He might be wrong. Some day we will know. Meanwhile, going by track record, objectivity, and experience, there is a good chance he is fundamentally right, if impolitic. He is not prone to making things up. Or, refreshingly, regurgitating corporate marketing.
But on the actual performance he basically agrees with reports from the more tender, modern "reviews", and Leica: the M10 is a little better than the SL and a lot better than the 240 in ISO performance. M246 is better by far than both, but we know why.
New sensor or better implemented SL sensor, the M10 is a very solid step forward where it really counts. Low Light.
I did not think they would manage it, so hat's off. There seems to have been lots of work on the OOC image profile and the lens profiles as well. It's going to be fun to see the new M in the real world with all the great LTM/M glass 🙂
PS Puts on this very issue, again
"Before the basic substrate are located a number of layers: Bayer pattern, IR filter, optionally a low pass filter and coupled to the sensor are the CMOS read out and the A/D converter that integrates with the DSP processor, the Maestro-II in case of Leica. To improve the light gathering capacity of the pixel, an array of specifically shaped microlenses is used in every case. This is not specific for the Leica designed sensors, but common practice.....
The complicated and often highly integrated and also the many separated elements that make up the full architecture make it quite difficult to say that one specific sensor is is or is not different from another one.
The remark that the filter layer and the shape of the microlenses of the sensor in the M10 have been (again) optimized for the use of Leica M lenses has not much information value. Such an optimization has been the case for every Leica digital M since the M8 and DMR R8- module. It would be only informative when the differences are specified in detail. These changes (in whatever extent and magnitude) do not imply that the rest of the sensor architecture is or is not identical to another one...
Depending on how one person assesses the magnitude of the differences in architecture, one may say that (to be specific) the sensor in the M10 is or is not identical with the sensor in the SL. After all, the sensor in the Q and SL have been claimed as the same or as improved, whatever this means. The upshot is that it is the result that counts. "
My own understanding, which I would be happy to have corrected, is that Leica has never designed any sensor, or any part of any sensor. They have chosen sensors and parts which were already in existence. If somebody can show me a Leica sensor, microlens, or glass patent, I'd love to see it. The fundamental difference between a FF Leica today and a Sony or Canon sensor is simply the coverglass and filter stack which is chosen. Only Leica asks the IR cut to be directly glued to the sensor surface as a "cover glass". This is so the very steep ray angles of light from short register RF lenses are disrupted as little as possible. They choose the type of IR cut, i.e. Schott S8612 or BG 55 and its thickness. Everybody else places the IR cut and AA etc above a much harder clear coverglass, which is about .7mm thick, in a holder or holders, called a "filter stack". In the case of Sony A7 this amounts to an additional 1.9mm of IR and other types of glass, which is where the "smearing" comes from.
Of course, this does not mean Leica could not choose a fundamentally new design of sensor, as they did from M9 to M240, or a new CMOS configuration. These are commodities, however, and big changes are usually pretty obvious, like the Sony FF BSI 42 MP sensor. That is a huge change from A7r. Truly a whole new sensor--and well advanced from the M10 objectively, I would wager. Hence the A7rii can shoot 4K without overheating, as could the M10 with the Sony r2 sensor. With a thin IR coverglass the Sony would do just as well with RF wides, I would also wager.
What's the big secret? If M10 is really such a change, why not just tell us the basics, like Sony? Unless the mystery is more impressive, as Puts implies 😉
But all that is just corporate and human nature. Again the M10 is a great camera, and seems to have a very good sensor, and lots of other aspects superior to any Sony. Not many care it is less mp than Sony or cannot shoot video.
Let not the perfect be the enemy of the good. 🙂
Kai does M10:
https://youtu.be/wNqgivM7-7M
LightBender
Member
I managed to get into Seattle today and stop by Glazers Camera and l take the M10 out for about an hour and shoot around South Lake Union.
Just some impressions of a few things I was wondering about. I'll try and keep them balanced so, it may sound like there isn't a lot of difference in this new M10 compared to the M240 I have. To save you time, the end of this initial impression review is, I will upgrade. The M10 is just better in about every way, but the M10 isn't wow better if, you are just interested in specs. But, for me, there is more to a camera than specs.
Just a perspective about me, I've owned all of the M digital cameras from early 2008 with the M8 and have upgraded and traded in each iteration of the M digital line just as they came out. I hope to have the M10 on Monday and I'll trade in my M240. I never keep the previous version as I'd never use the previous camera and I know it would just sit. I have a bunch of Leica M and R glass and have tried a couple of other current FF cameras, both Sony and Canon. Like the Leica cameras, I've sold them for one reason or another and because, I really just need and want one camera... just me.
Ok, first off the new M feels really good in hand as I carried it out of the store without a strap. It definitely feels smaller and a bit lighter. Once I brought the camera to my eye and started shooting, it didn't really feel much different in size or handling from my M240. Switching back and forth, actually shooting, they are very close in size and handling. The M240 is still a nice solid little shooter.
Viewfinder. Very nice. I think it is a little easier to focus. I'm a 28 shooter and the 28 lines are much easier to see... like 35 in the M240 finder. I found shooting 28 a lot easier and less fatiguing. Shooting 35 even better. The 35 lines had a lot of image around the frame lines. I believe 35 shooters are going to be impressed by the viewfinder. But, again, the M240 is fine for 35... a little tough on 28 and still seems fine when I switched back to it.
The ISO dial was a little fidgety to change (you'll never bump it accidentally) and I would have been fine with going to the menu, like the M240. I did like being able to glance down at the top of the camera and see shutter speed and ISO. The ISO dial does look cool 😛 and I'll probably warm to using it because, the dial seems to fit into the overall design concept of this camera.
The screen is finally nice. The fidelity is much better than the M240. Finally, I could really enjoy looking through my pictures on the camera. But, not as good as some other cameras and not close to an iPhone.
Speaking of the iPhone, I had the Leica M App on my phone and easily connected it to the M10. The App worked fine and was pretty cool. I can foresee using it occasionally to control the camera and it will make it easy to use the camera for social media, sharing and storing. I did find it kind of odd that Leica put it on this camera and maybe even more odd that it actually worked so well. I liked it.
The buttons and the interface was excellent. Layout and simplicity was excellent. The implementation of the controls and menu just really get out of your way and resonate with the basic functionality of M cameras. The whole organic, simple gestalt of this camera has an integrated feel between shooting and control of the camera. This makes shooting very concentrated and focused. I won't miss the M240, and I thought it was simple.
When I got home tonight I looked through the images. My impressions of image quality always seem to evolve as I use a camera. So, I'll be brief. Reds are truer and less yellow. Skin tones are less magenta and seem to be truer. Colors out of camera in DNG in LR using the Leica imbedded profile was really good as was WB. As you'd expect, Leica color processing has evolved.
I shot all ISOs and my main impression was that the color fidelity was very good as ISO increased. And, no banding.
A lot of cameras do a good job smoothing out the noise but, don't seem to get the colors right. With the M10, it was the color at higher ISO that impressed me. The M10 does have noise at higher ISO but, it is way better than my M240. I'm sure it is not going to be best in class. But, the noise has a really nice smooth grainy feel I liked a lot.
As usual, Leica leaves the files pretty "bare foot." You are going to have to apply NR in PP as you want if, you desire that smooth plastic feel to your photos like other brands give you out-of-camera. I personally like the grainy feel as long as the color fidelity is great, and it is with the M10.
So, there you go. Any one factor is probably not enough to upgrade from the M240. But, in total, the M10 seems like a completely different camera. It is lean. The feature-fat has been trimmed... and some of that fat was certainly not the best part of the M240.
The M10 is organic. More focused, simpler and less. I believe a lot of film M shooters are going to resonate with M10. I believe this one is going to be iconic.
Just some impressions of a few things I was wondering about. I'll try and keep them balanced so, it may sound like there isn't a lot of difference in this new M10 compared to the M240 I have. To save you time, the end of this initial impression review is, I will upgrade. The M10 is just better in about every way, but the M10 isn't wow better if, you are just interested in specs. But, for me, there is more to a camera than specs.
Just a perspective about me, I've owned all of the M digital cameras from early 2008 with the M8 and have upgraded and traded in each iteration of the M digital line just as they came out. I hope to have the M10 on Monday and I'll trade in my M240. I never keep the previous version as I'd never use the previous camera and I know it would just sit. I have a bunch of Leica M and R glass and have tried a couple of other current FF cameras, both Sony and Canon. Like the Leica cameras, I've sold them for one reason or another and because, I really just need and want one camera... just me.
Ok, first off the new M feels really good in hand as I carried it out of the store without a strap. It definitely feels smaller and a bit lighter. Once I brought the camera to my eye and started shooting, it didn't really feel much different in size or handling from my M240. Switching back and forth, actually shooting, they are very close in size and handling. The M240 is still a nice solid little shooter.
Viewfinder. Very nice. I think it is a little easier to focus. I'm a 28 shooter and the 28 lines are much easier to see... like 35 in the M240 finder. I found shooting 28 a lot easier and less fatiguing. Shooting 35 even better. The 35 lines had a lot of image around the frame lines. I believe 35 shooters are going to be impressed by the viewfinder. But, again, the M240 is fine for 35... a little tough on 28 and still seems fine when I switched back to it.
The ISO dial was a little fidgety to change (you'll never bump it accidentally) and I would have been fine with going to the menu, like the M240. I did like being able to glance down at the top of the camera and see shutter speed and ISO. The ISO dial does look cool 😛 and I'll probably warm to using it because, the dial seems to fit into the overall design concept of this camera.
The screen is finally nice. The fidelity is much better than the M240. Finally, I could really enjoy looking through my pictures on the camera. But, not as good as some other cameras and not close to an iPhone.
Speaking of the iPhone, I had the Leica M App on my phone and easily connected it to the M10. The App worked fine and was pretty cool. I can foresee using it occasionally to control the camera and it will make it easy to use the camera for social media, sharing and storing. I did find it kind of odd that Leica put it on this camera and maybe even more odd that it actually worked so well. I liked it.
The buttons and the interface was excellent. Layout and simplicity was excellent. The implementation of the controls and menu just really get out of your way and resonate with the basic functionality of M cameras. The whole organic, simple gestalt of this camera has an integrated feel between shooting and control of the camera. This makes shooting very concentrated and focused. I won't miss the M240, and I thought it was simple.
When I got home tonight I looked through the images. My impressions of image quality always seem to evolve as I use a camera. So, I'll be brief. Reds are truer and less yellow. Skin tones are less magenta and seem to be truer. Colors out of camera in DNG in LR using the Leica imbedded profile was really good as was WB. As you'd expect, Leica color processing has evolved.
I shot all ISOs and my main impression was that the color fidelity was very good as ISO increased. And, no banding.
A lot of cameras do a good job smoothing out the noise but, don't seem to get the colors right. With the M10, it was the color at higher ISO that impressed me. The M10 does have noise at higher ISO but, it is way better than my M240. I'm sure it is not going to be best in class. But, the noise has a really nice smooth grainy feel I liked a lot.
As usual, Leica leaves the files pretty "bare foot." You are going to have to apply NR in PP as you want if, you desire that smooth plastic feel to your photos like other brands give you out-of-camera. I personally like the grainy feel as long as the color fidelity is great, and it is with the M10.
So, there you go. Any one factor is probably not enough to upgrade from the M240. But, in total, the M10 seems like a completely different camera. It is lean. The feature-fat has been trimmed... and some of that fat was certainly not the best part of the M240.
The M10 is organic. More focused, simpler and less. I believe a lot of film M shooters are going to resonate with M10. I believe this one is going to be iconic.
Kent
Finally at home...
It is definitely not the sensor of the SL!
robert blu
quiet photographer
Never bought a digital m because never fully convinced maybe this is the time I'll go digital and I'll give the M7 some rest...
robert
PS: I'll wait anyway a few months...to evaluate the post initial excitement reactions...
raid
Dad Photographer
Smart move, Robert. Wait to get more hands on feedback from people you know.
I wonder if I would ever manage to get a loaner M10!
I wonder if I would ever manage to get a loaner M10!
willie_901
Veteran
Personally I think it's wonderful you found a kit that makes you happy.
Fujifilm is unwilling to meet your needs with the X100 series. Neither are numerous other digital camera brands. Very few photographers in the market for a new camera value mechanical manual focusing. Even fewer are willing to pay more for mechanical, manual focusing. So, many would be willing to pay more for mechanical, manual focusing on a fixed lens camera?
I don't see how Fujifilm's (or all the other brands') marketing decisions are worth criticizing
I understand how you would not want to use mechanical MF lenses with focal lengths intended for 24 X 36 mm media with an APS-C sensor with an X-Serie interchangeable lens camera. I did that a long time ago with a D200. I used 24, 28, 35 and 50 mm lenses. Eventually I realized the where you stand is the only thing that matters. But back then the options were limited for F-mount mechanical MF, ultra-wide angle prime lenses.
willie_901
Veteran
ferider
Veteran
It's more complicated than that. Read for example
http://www.jazzsemi.com/cmos-image-sensor.html
TowerJazz provides a sensor platform, where a customer (like Leica) can not only pick cover layers, micro lens architectures, etc., but even modify the underlying sensor/pixel architecture, for example by specifying target base ISO or DR. Why does Leica not tell you what they did ? Because it's IP. And patenting is only one way to protect it (not always the smartest due to necessary publication).
Roland.
raid
Dad Photographer
These are good points, Roland. Trade secrets stay off limits to any competitors.
Out to Lunch
Veteran
I contacted the Leica Store in Geneva, Switzerland and they told me that they don't have a confirmed delivery date from Leica Germany and also that they have received very many pre-orders for the M10. In Switzerland, it sells for Swiss Francs 7,150.
raid
Dad Photographer
Today's exchange rate is 1:1 for Swiss Franks, Peter.
It looks as if the M10 is already a success.
It looks as if the M10 is already a success.
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