Love it! I am most impressed that most of the previous negativity has evaporated now that the camera is announced and shipping! So far it is hitting the spot...uhoh7
Veteran
M10 RAW files a bit strange
Sandy does suggest color matrix changes may indicate a different sensor.
I'm asking him more about that
Sandy does suggest color matrix changes may indicate a different sensor.
I'm asking him more about that
raid
Dad Photographer
I think you are correct. They do not seem to have the M10 anymore.
raid
Dad Photographer
Leica is currently consolidating all feedback on the M10.
tightsqueez
Well-known
No, I didn't find any currently for sale on Amazon. While the M10 looks fantastic, I'm waiting this one out until the monochrom version comes out. I'm snug as a bug with the M240.
raid
Dad Photographer
Snug as a bug with my M9!
tightsqueez
Well-known
Then the grass isn't greener! Stay put! Let the fires rage, drive on with the M9 and when it dies buy a used M10 for 3k in a few years.
mkorabo
Member
Leica M10
Leica M10
Visited the Leica Store SF today to take in the HCB exhibit and handle the M10. My thoughts are Leica really nailed it with this one. I had the M8, sat out the M9 & M240, I was so impressed I place an order today for the black chrome model. They can not confirm the exact delivery time but estimated it would arrive in two to three weeks. I eagerly await its arrival.
Leica M10
Visited the Leica Store SF today to take in the HCB exhibit and handle the M10. My thoughts are Leica really nailed it with this one. I had the M8, sat out the M9 & M240, I was so impressed I place an order today for the black chrome model. They can not confirm the exact delivery time but estimated it would arrive in two to three weeks. I eagerly await its arrival.
Huss
Veteran
M10 RAW files a bit strange
Sandy does suggest color matrix changes may indicate a different sensor.
I'm asking him more about that
Weird. No lens profiles are saved. If you shoot DNG it also saves 3 jpegs w/ it including a full resolution one! That makes each file very large.
It's almost like the firmware is very beta. Even more than usual!
JPSuisse
Well-known
I understand where you are coming from. The M8 isn't perfect for me, but I didn't see the upgrade value in the other cameras. Actually, after the M came out and I realized what it was, I thought, "Geez, this is going the wrong direction. I should have bought an M9-P while I had the chance..." I like the M10 files I have seen, the color and the smaller size.
Regarding the M, for instance, I never understood why an M mount camera needed video. It's hard enough to focus these M lenses with a small depth of field on a still target little alone a moving target!!! Good move to eliminate that useless feature and lower the price some. For me a complete gimmick resembling CE junk. (Although the camera part was certainly ok.)
We may be getting back to real tools here from Leica. I downloaded the RAW files from the website of Leica and was pleasantly surprised to find out that the files also even work with my old OS (10.6.8 on LR4) without a problem. I didn't realize that DNGs are so flexible. This is much better than the RAW files of other companies that are encrypted and require for sure a software upgrade every time you buy new hardware. Way to go Leica!
So far I like what I see.
uhoh7
Veteran
Congrats!!! Can't wait to see some shots. I'm especially eager to see the M10 with older wide lenses.
I think the camera is so well done, it is acting as a sort of vindication of all the Ms. The name and the file look is a serious nod to the M9, which has ridden out the cover glass problem in a political sense, and is now more valued than ever. But the M240 has been a great camera also. Tougher than M9 (the RF), good battery (whoops M10), and lots of other features people wanted. It's been a killer platform, M246, M262 are both great cameras. The M10 has learned alot from where they are great and where they could be improved.
100 grams less weight would have been nice and less battery compromise, but those are not deal breakers. Size, view, shutter, handling, files and ISO more than make up for those things: and are more important.
Even the price is sort of reasonable!
Though I bring up issues, I have admired the camera from the start, and if I had extra money for one, I'd be on that list too.
anerjee
Well-known
My m-p (240) went back to Leica Germany due to a faulty lcd.
Now I'm considering whether to upgrade, as the new rf/vf magnification seems attractive for a dedicated 28mm shooter like myself.
Now I'm considering whether to upgrade, as the new rf/vf magnification seems attractive for a dedicated 28mm shooter like myself.
robert blu
quiet photographer
So much enthusiasm here is nice. So many times I read negative attitudes towards new cameras but this time is different! Hope Leica will not decide for a price increase in a short time when the camera is so much appreciated
robert
PS: personally my temptation is very strong...
robert
PS: personally my temptation is very strong...
froyd
Veteran
Agreed, Robert. Leica did a great job on this one!
froyd
Veteran
Assuming you can get your hands on one, how about buying one and selling it for a $500 loss in one year? Or maybe $300 in 2 months (keep warranty card blank)? Might be cheaper than renting but required a bigger cash flow up-front.
Emile de Leon
Well-known
That's a great idea!!
_goodtimez
Well-known
Leica will most probably make a black paint M10-P in a year from now
raid
Dad Photographer
I am quite satisfied so far with M8 & M9 for my snapshots. I am not a professional photographer. Your tip is very logical, though. Thanks.
user237428934
User deletion pending
I downloaded the M10 raw files from the Leica homepage and tweaked them a bit in Capture One. I applied several Leica colour profiles, the M240 profile didn't look good, SL and Q were ok. There was no high iso example so I can't comment on that. My first impression is, that the dynamic range is not so different from my M240. Some of the examples had a lot of blown highlights in the preview and it seems the highlight repair is not better compared to the 240.
I suspect that for me as a landscape shooter with limited demand in high iso capability, the benefit over a 240 is not so great. Pentax K-1 is probably more interesting for that
I suspect that for me as a landscape shooter with limited demand in high iso capability, the benefit over a 240 is not so great. Pentax K-1 is probably more interesting for that
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
CMOSIS designed the M240 sensor to Leica specifacations.He's the only one, alright
Erwin Puts is one of the last great independent voices, not in anyone's pocket. Not worried who will send him a camera. He has forgot more about Leica than Sean Reid will ever know. Compared to Puts' extensive work in testing optics, Reid and Lloyd are hobbyists. Based on his writing he knows far more about digital imaging than they do.
He might be wrong. Some day we will know. Meanwhile, going by track record, objectivity, and experience, there is a good chance he is fundamentally right, if impolitic. He is not prone to making things up. Or, refreshingly, regurgitating corporate marketing.
But on the actual performance he basically agrees with reports from the more tender, modern "reviews", and Leica: the M10 is a little better than the SL and a lot better than the 240 in ISO performance. M246 is better by far than both, but we know why.
New sensor or better implemented SL sensor, the M10 is a very solid step forward where it really counts. Low Light.
I did not think they would manage it, so hat's off. There seems to have been lots of work on the OOC image profile and the lens profiles as well. It's going to be fun to see the new M in the real world with all the great LTM/M glass
PS Puts on this very issue, again
"Before the basic substrate are located a number of layers: Bayer pattern, IR filter, optionally a low pass filter and coupled to the sensor are the CMOS read out and the A/D converter that integrates with the DSP processor, the Maestro-II in case of Leica. To improve the light gathering capacity of the pixel, an array of specifically shaped microlenses is used in every case. This is not specific for the Leica designed sensors, but common practice.....
The complicated and often highly integrated and also the many separated elements that make up the full architecture make it quite difficult to say that one specific sensor is is or is not different from another one.
The remark that the filter layer and the shape of the microlenses of the sensor in the M10 have been (again) optimized for the use of Leica M lenses has not much information value. Such an optimization has been the case for every Leica digital M since the M8 and DMR R8- module. It would be only informative when the differences are specified in detail. These changes (in whatever extent and magnitude) do not imply that the rest of the sensor architecture is or is not identical to another one...
Depending on how one person assesses the magnitude of the differences in architecture, one may say that (to be specific) the sensor in the M10 is or is not identical with the sensor in the SL. After all, the sensor in the Q and SL have been claimed as the same or as improved, whatever this means. The upshot is that it is the result that counts. "
My own understanding, which I would be happy to have corrected, is that Leica has never designed any sensor, or any part of any sensor. They have chosen sensors and parts which were already in existence. If somebody can show me a Leica sensor, microlens, or glass patent, I'd love to see it. The fundamental difference between a FF Leica today and a Sony or Canon sensor is simply the coverglass and filter stack which is chosen. Only Leica asks the IR cut to be directly glued to the sensor surface as a "cover glass". This is so the very steep ray angles of light from short register RF lenses are disrupted as little as possible. They choose the type of IR cut, i.e. Schott S8612 or BG 55 and its thickness. Everybody else places the IR cut and AA etc above a much harder clear coverglass, which is about .7mm thick, in a holder or holders, called a "filter stack". In the case of Sony A7 this amounts to an additional 1.9mm of IR and other types of glass, which is where the "smearing" comes from.
Of course, this does not mean Leica could not choose a fundamentally new design of sensor, as they did from M9 to M240, or a new CMOS configuration. These are commodities, however, and big changes are usually pretty obvious, like the Sony FF BSI 42 MP sensor. That is a huge change from A7r. Truly a whole new sensor--and well advanced from the M10 objectively, I would wager. Hence the A7rii can shoot 4K without overheating, as could the M10 with the Sony r2 sensor. With a thin IR coverglass the Sony would do just as well with RF wides, I would also wager.
What's the big secret? If M10 is really such a change, why not just tell us the basics, like Sony? Unless the mystery is more impressive, as Puts implies
But all that is just corporate and human nature. Again the M10 is a great camera, and seems to have a very good sensor, and lots of other aspects superior to any Sony. Not many care it is less mp than Sony or cannot shoot video.
Let not the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Kai does M10:
https://youtu.be/wNqgivM7-7M