paachi
DOF Luster
Hi,
I am new to rangefinder world and saved up $1500 for a new rangefinder. I have vacillated between a R-D1 and film Leicas. Personally the film is a lot of effort but I think I appreciate the nuances of B and W. Which Leica would you recommend as a first Leica to a rangefinder newbie..M2/ M4 or M4 - P..
To tell you a bit about my shooting style, I prefer street shooting and portraiture. I almost shoot exclusively Black and White. I would love the built in meter but will try to do without one. My current kit is a Canon 30D with 17 - 85 and 70 - 200.
I hear stories a legion about the German made M2/ M3 and M4 being better built than the contemporary Leicas or the Canadian ones.. How true is that??
I am aim to own this camera for life (assuming that I will love this style of photography)..I appreciate any feedback whatsoever..
Kind Regards,
Prashant.
I am new to rangefinder world and saved up $1500 for a new rangefinder. I have vacillated between a R-D1 and film Leicas. Personally the film is a lot of effort but I think I appreciate the nuances of B and W. Which Leica would you recommend as a first Leica to a rangefinder newbie..M2/ M4 or M4 - P..
To tell you a bit about my shooting style, I prefer street shooting and portraiture. I almost shoot exclusively Black and White. I would love the built in meter but will try to do without one. My current kit is a Canon 30D with 17 - 85 and 70 - 200.
I hear stories a legion about the German made M2/ M3 and M4 being better built than the contemporary Leicas or the Canadian ones.. How true is that??
I am aim to own this camera for life (assuming that I will love this style of photography)..I appreciate any feedback whatsoever..
Kind Regards,
Prashant.
Fred Burton
Well-known
What is it about your 30D that you don't like that you want to switch to a rangefinder?
paachi
DOF Luster
M2 or M3 or M4 or M4 - P
M2 or M3 or M4 or M4 - P
Good Question Fred..
I have been vacillating between buying a rangefinder or not for many days trying to answer this question..for me the primary answer always comes back to size and immediacy..
Street shooting with a 30D always attracts unsavory attention..I did try street shooting with a Canon G series camera..though it gave me size, it did not have the speed and the ability to easily capture the moment..
To add to all this there is the lust of sharp primes of the rangefinder world..if I were to toss up between choosing a sharp 'coke can' prime from an SLR and a small sharp prime Leica..I will pick the Leica any day..
Best,
PK.
M2 or M3 or M4 or M4 - P
Good Question Fred..
I have been vacillating between buying a rangefinder or not for many days trying to answer this question..for me the primary answer always comes back to size and immediacy..
Street shooting with a 30D always attracts unsavory attention..I did try street shooting with a Canon G series camera..though it gave me size, it did not have the speed and the ability to easily capture the moment..
To add to all this there is the lust of sharp primes of the rangefinder world..if I were to toss up between choosing a sharp 'coke can' prime from an SLR and a small sharp prime Leica..I will pick the Leica any day..
Best,
PK.
maddoc
... likes film again.
The newest of the bunch (that you have mentioned) is the M4-P. Roughly summarized a M6 without meter. My favorite Leica M.
There are reported problems about early Canadian produced Leicas (M4-2) but later models are as fine as any in Solms produced Leica.
A well treated Leica, that is serviced from time to time should be good for a couple of decades.
Cheers,
Gabor
elshaneo
Panographer
For your budget of 1500 USD, I'd recommend to get the Leica M6 + Voigtlander M 35mm f/2.5 lens.
thomasw_
Well-known
As you like street and portraiture, I recommend a 50mm lens to start. Now you have loads of options...at least two for every RFF member But I would recommend a hand held meter, a M2 and a collapsible summicron 50/2 for a great, very versatile starter kit; you'll be able to stay within your budget with this combination. One of the great things about the M2 is its standalone framelines for the 35 50 and 90 lenses; as such, when you feel the need to widen your FOV for the street, you'll be able to obtain a good 35mm lens and use it without any auxilliary finder. A M3 is fantastic with a 50mm lens, but it is less versatile, being without 35mm framelines; so get the M2. It rocks, trust me.
Good cheer,
Thomas
But I would recommend a hand held meter, a M2 and a collapsible summicron 50/2 for a great, very versatile starter kit; you'll be able to stay within your budget with this combination. One of the great things about the M2 is its standalone framelines for the 35 50 and 90 lenses; as such, when you feel the need to widen your FOV for the street, you'll be able to obtain a good 35mm lens and use it without any auxilliary finder. A M3 is fantastic with a 50mm lens, but it is less versatile, being without 35mm framelines; so get the M2. It rocks, trust me.Good cheer,
Thomas
ray*j*gun
Veteran
Before you decide the older M's are somehow better than "contemporary" cameras you should spend some time with the M6. I have an S3 2000 and an M6 and I love the feel and performance of the Leica. Its hard to imagine a better feel and shooter than the M6. My 2 cents.
Good luck.
Ray
Good luck.
Ray
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Al Kaplan
Veteran
Well, I was out shooting tonight with my 1958 vintage M2 which I picked up in 1972. I knew the most recent two previous owners. The first one bought it second hand in 1968. Before that I don't know, but it's seen continuous pro use for at least forty years and it still has buttery smooth film wind, quiet shutter, all the things you'd hope for in a new camera except built in metering. I'd say it was a good buy at the time for about $100 (maybe $600 in today's money) and will probably still be shooting in another 50 years. The 50mm f/2 Summicron, any vintage, would be good, or you can get a 50/1.8 Canon for less money, but still a good lens. You'll need to pick up a thread mount to M bayonet adapter for the Canon which wipes out part of the savings.
aizan
Veteran
at this point, imagining you'll use something for the rest of your life is a bit premature. if you routinely use a meterless camera, i would go with an m4. otherwise, the m6.
pkuglin
Established
I suggest you find someone who has a Leica for you can look through the viewfinder.
As stated earlier a M3 doesn't have frame lines for a 35mm which is the #1 street lens.
A M2 is a great choice because it is well built and has a simple viewfinder - only 3 frame lines choices and only one shows up at a time. Less to distract you. Only down sides is a slower loading system and no meter.
A M4 is almost the same as the M2. It has a faster loading system and adds a 135mm frameline which is shared with the 35mm frameline. It also has a faster rewind system which continues until the MP. I find it isn't "that" much faster though.
A M4-2 is a low cost M4. Same loading and frame line setup. It has a lower end finish though, but it is the first to have a hot shoe. The viewfinder is dimmer that the previous setups (they changed it to save cost). However in practical use it is hard to tell. This stays the same through the M6TTL
A M4-P has a 28/35/50/75/90/135mm frameline setup - each choice shows 2 framelines so it is more cluttered.
A M6 is a M4-P with a meter.
M6TTL/M7/MP is outside your budget.
For me it the choice would be a M4. Faster loading system and simple viewfinder. It is also the last of the original Leica manufacturing philosophy. Some may argue the M2 isn't actually that slow to load, but lets face it Leica don't change anything very lightly That said if you learn to load the M2 you will save $200-300 which can be used for glass.
If you want a meter then a M6 wouldn't be a bad choice, but this adds $300
For street you want a 35mm f2, portrait a 50mm f2. Personally, I find using a 50mm for street to much FL. It puts you farther back and more misses on focus. I shoot street mostly at a pre-focused value and close as possible to the action ~ 3-4 meters away.
As stated earlier a M3 doesn't have frame lines for a 35mm which is the #1 street lens.
A M2 is a great choice because it is well built and has a simple viewfinder - only 3 frame lines choices and only one shows up at a time. Less to distract you. Only down sides is a slower loading system and no meter.
A M4 is almost the same as the M2. It has a faster loading system and adds a 135mm frameline which is shared with the 35mm frameline. It also has a faster rewind system which continues until the MP. I find it isn't "that" much faster though.
A M4-2 is a low cost M4. Same loading and frame line setup. It has a lower end finish though, but it is the first to have a hot shoe. The viewfinder is dimmer that the previous setups (they changed it to save cost). However in practical use it is hard to tell. This stays the same through the M6TTL
A M4-P has a 28/35/50/75/90/135mm frameline setup - each choice shows 2 framelines so it is more cluttered.
A M6 is a M4-P with a meter.
M6TTL/M7/MP is outside your budget.
For me it the choice would be a M4. Faster loading system and simple viewfinder. It is also the last of the original Leica manufacturing philosophy. Some may argue the M2 isn't actually that slow to load, but lets face it Leica don't change anything very lightly
That said if you learn to load the M2 you will save $200-300 which can be used for glass.If you want a meter then a M6 wouldn't be a bad choice, but this adds $300
For street you want a 35mm f2, portrait a 50mm f2. Personally, I find using a 50mm for street to much FL. It puts you farther back and more misses on focus. I shoot street mostly at a pre-focused value and close as possible to the action ~ 3-4 meters away.
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ruby.monkey
Veteran
How about the recently-CLA'd M4-P that's currently being advertised on this very site for $800? That'll give you a lifetime of service and leave you $700 to spend on good glass.
steverett
Anthopomorphized Camera
Having used both, I find the M4 rewind considerably faster. Maybe it's just my technique. Combined with the faster reload, my turnover is half the time when I use my M4 instead of M3.
For the OP: For street shooting, I would recommend either the M2 or the M4, since it has the built-in framelines for 35mm, as previous posters have said. You should compare the two and see if the extra features of the M4 are worth the higher price.
As for lenses, I also recommend checking out Cosina Voigtlander lenses; they will be much more affordable on your budget, and are frequently praised on the forum.
funkaoshi
Well-known
If you are primarily interested in street shooting, than any of the meterless Ms should work well enough. Guessing exposure outdoors is fairly easy. I don't think the M3 is a good choice, because it lacks 35mm frame lines. I think 35mm and wider is a good focal length for getting a big scene when street shooting. So I'd grab an M4 or M2. I have an M2, and it's great.
januaryman
"Flim? You want flim?"
The M2 I got was inexpensive (in Leica dollars, that is) and looks used but not abused. The photos I've pulled out of that old camera are just amazing. I first tried a CV 35mm Skopar Classic (with the adapter, of course) but the Canon 50/1.8 seems the perfect lens to mate it with. I'm still searching for a Canon 35/2.0 I can afford, but I can wait. The M2 has framelines for the 35, so it was a natural selection for me after I seriously considered, and almost bought, an M3. Good luck on your quest.
I bought the M2 on ebay, but got it from Youxin Ye, a "Leica Mechanic." If I were you, I'd ask him first and see if he has anything in the works he might be willing to sell at a fixed price.
If you want a Canon LTM lens, a similarly reputable ebay guy is jiri_e, who sells Canon gear. I asked about that 35/2.0 lens I wanted, told him what I hoped to spend. He told me that was going to be unlikely, as they typically sell for much more than what I quoted as my limit. I forgot about it, until just a month ago when he dropped me an email, offering me that lens for about $100 above my quote, still a great price. I didn't have the cash, and thanked him. He put it on ebay the next week as he said he would and got $175 more than the price he was asking me for!
If I could have come up with that cash, I would have had the lens of my dreams at a VERY good price. I guess I need to get a second job!
I bought the M2 on ebay, but got it from Youxin Ye, a "Leica Mechanic." If I were you, I'd ask him first and see if he has anything in the works he might be willing to sell at a fixed price.
If you want a Canon LTM lens, a similarly reputable ebay guy is jiri_e, who sells Canon gear. I asked about that 35/2.0 lens I wanted, told him what I hoped to spend. He told me that was going to be unlikely, as they typically sell for much more than what I quoted as my limit. I forgot about it, until just a month ago when he dropped me an email, offering me that lens for about $100 above my quote, still a great price. I didn't have the cash, and thanked him. He put it on ebay the next week as he said he would and got $175 more than the price he was asking me for!
If I could have come up with that cash, I would have had the lens of my dreams at a VERY good price. I guess I need to get a second job!
neelin
Established
I've got a Canon G series (now loaned out permanently) & I know what you mean. I also have an M8, but if you want to deliberate a bit pick up a $35-50 film Stylus Epic (not the zoom model). An astoundingly good film streetshooter for the dollars. I used to carry this as my 35mm lens and a Contax G1 with 90mm. A great pair.
robert
JNewell
Leica M Recidivist
Unless you must have the 28mm framelines, a .85x M6...
..."classic" if you foresee buying other earlier bodies, or
...M6TTL if you may buy an M7 or won't buy "classic"-type bodies (the shutter speed dial rotation was reversed starting with the M6TTL)
..."classic" if you foresee buying other earlier bodies, or
...M6TTL if you may buy an M7 or won't buy "classic"-type bodies (the shutter speed dial rotation was reversed starting with the M6TTL)
richard_l
Well-known
I have an M2 and an M6. I do not believe the M2 is basically any better than the M6. The M2 has a somewhat smoother feel, but the M6 has a solid feel that gives the impression of immortality. Except for the electronics of the meter, I expect my M6 to last for a couple more generations.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
For me, it mostly comes down to meter or not.
If you go for 'or not' then I prefer the M2: a simpler finder (one frame at a time) that doesn't flare as much. If I had to sell either my M4-P or an M2 ( have two), the M4-P would go. Also, one of the M2s has a RapidWinder on it!
As for the 'wrong way' shutter dial, that's the M6ttl, M7 and M8; on the MP it went back to the 'right' way -- which logically, in a metered camera, is wrong, but we're used to it...
The only other consideration -- again, for me -- is the 75mm frame, which is non-existent before the M4-P and pretty skimpy in the M4-P. I don't have a problem loading an M2.
Cheers,
R.
If you go for 'or not' then I prefer the M2: a simpler finder (one frame at a time) that doesn't flare as much. If I had to sell either my M4-P or an M2 ( have two), the M4-P would go. Also, one of the M2s has a RapidWinder on it!
As for the 'wrong way' shutter dial, that's the M6ttl, M7 and M8; on the MP it went back to the 'right' way -- which logically, in a metered camera, is wrong, but we're used to it...
The only other consideration -- again, for me -- is the 75mm frame, which is non-existent before the M4-P and pretty skimpy in the M4-P. I don't have a problem loading an M2.
Cheers,
R.
mfogiel
Veteran
If you want to try a great, simple combo on the cheap - an M2+Rigid or DR Summicron will set you up perfectly for B&W shooting. If you want something outstanding, forget the Leicas and get a Zeiss Ikon with the Planar - if you get it second hand you should manage with your budget. In my opinion a metered non AE body is the worst of both worlds - it is neither fast nor totally accurate, and a vf cluttered with many frames is a useless distraction, in this sense the M2 or ZI , rather than an M6 solutions are ideal.
squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
Having been down that road and emerged with one AE film body and one unmetered film body, I agree completely.