erikhaugsby
killer of threads
Harry Lime said:
On the circumference of the shutter speed dial, just below the little indented "lip," if you will, is a small area where the wind lever can (and does) come into contact with the dial. Repeated impact between the lever and dial can cause little oval-shaped depressions on the side of the dial.
Ken Ford
Refuses to suffer fools
Tom, since we're already talking about shutter speed dials... 
Any change your "cold weather" dial will make it into production?
Any change your "cold weather" dial will make it into production?
Carzee
unpimp deine auto-kamera!
I'm in fog here at the moment, 2 deg Celsius, but still can't imagine how cold it would have to be to have to use one of those items.
Incidentally, my M2's wax seal has the number 24. I brought it from california, exc++. Any ideas whose mark is 24?
Incidentally, my M2's wax seal has the number 24. I brought it from california, exc++. Any ideas whose mark is 24?
Harry Lime
Practitioner
Tom A said:
Thanks Tom. That's very, very clever and observant. Looks like my M2 sat on a shelf somewhere, until I got my hands on it. Now it's used, but not abused.
The vulcanite on one of my M4's is worn smooth on both ends. It's not as bad as Winogrands M4 on Steve's site, but it is obvious that it was 'clenched' a lot. This was an unappreciated beater that I rescued for a mere pittance from a collector.
I had the chrome stripped from it and it is awaiting a new paint job (black paint). After that it will go off to DAG or Sherry for a full CLA and rebuild. That should make her good for another 20 years of adventure.
Ken Ford
Refuses to suffer fools
Carzee said:
I can think of two situations:
* Gloves
* Arthritis
bobkonos
Well-known
Thanks to Tom for his great answers. My first M model was the M2, and I am happy to use one again as I primarily use 35 lenses and never use 90 or 135 lenses. In fact, I use my M2 and my other even numbered M models (M4, M6), more than my four M3 cameras. But his responses and his following of devotees could now make it tough for me to sell any of my M3 cameras. Sigh...
Sigh...
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
Ken Ford said:Tom, since we're already talking about shutter speed dials...
Any change your "cold weather" dial will make it into production?
I still have a couple of the stamped dials floating around. they are chrome ones and at some time I might make a couple more.No "production" per se planned.
If I did it today i would use computer controlled machines for the production and i doubt the demand is there. The old ones were made with a sledgehammer, a hardened steel die and an arbor type 3 ton press. Dont think my neigboors would like it!
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
Having shot at close to -30 in Russia I can definitely assure you there are situations where a bigger, easily grippable speed dial is an advantage.Carzee said:
Philipp
Carzee
unpimp deine auto-kamera!
rxmd said:
Well, you'd have to agree the Australian market is neglible -though I suppose some of us venture to the South Pole.
Alternatively, in Australia's extreme weather, it could help having an XL shutter spped grip when your hands are dripping in tropical sweat.
prav66
Newbie
Hi Tom,
I'm curious what you think of the Zeiss Ikon RF camera in relation to the M2.
Both cameras have gloriously bright & isolated 35mm framelines, better for that focal length than any other camera out there I've seen. Hence I'm deliberating between them.
The Leica is quieter, but the loading/rewinding on the Zeiss is a lot less of a pain Also, it's AE display is very discreet & on the side so it's easy to ignore...
I'm curious what you think of the Zeiss Ikon RF camera in relation to the M2.
Both cameras have gloriously bright & isolated 35mm framelines, better for that focal length than any other camera out there I've seen. Hence I'm deliberating between them.
The Leica is quieter, but the loading/rewinding on the Zeiss is a lot less of a pain
Also, it's AE display is very discreet & on the side so it's easy to ignore...
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
The M2 versus the ZI. Now that is an interesting comparison. I think that the M2 is like a 1956 Porsche Speedster, light, no frills and with proper care it will outlast most of us. The Zeiss Ikon is more in the class of the BMW M5, sophisticated, a bit complex to fix if needed, fast and "safe".
The ZI finder is one of the best you will ever look through and for using 35 as you say, it is about as good as it gets. It is battery dependant, though a set will last for 40-50 rolls. I have no fear about service as it uses the Seiko shutter, which exists in millions cameras and has proven itself to be very rugged. I dont know how complex the rangefinder would be to fix if you dropped it on its "head". Currently I am using the ZI with as 40/1,4 Nokton and by being pessimistic about the 35 frame coverage it works well. Using a rangefinder camera does require that you give up some of the precision of a SLR for framing. but the advantages far outweighs the disadvantages.
The M2 is a classic and it does require that you think and plan a bit ahead when you shoot. As a rule I find that with a non metered camera I shoot faster than with any metered body (and screw up exposures a bit more). The M2 gives you a feeling of acomplishment that an "auto" everything camera does not give.
Of course, ideally you should have one of each! For now though, I would suggest the ZI and set up a "piggy" bank for a M2 in the future. This allows you to pick and choose which M2 to get as they are all used, whilst the ZI is available new.
You can save a lot of money by going to VC and Zeiss lenses and put the difference in the M2 fund too. You do not loose anything in lens quality anymore. Both the VC lenses and the ZI lenses can match most of the Leica lenses (exception being the 50/1,4 Asph. and the 75f2 Summicron).
The ZI finder is one of the best you will ever look through and for using 35 as you say, it is about as good as it gets. It is battery dependant, though a set will last for 40-50 rolls. I have no fear about service as it uses the Seiko shutter, which exists in millions cameras and has proven itself to be very rugged. I dont know how complex the rangefinder would be to fix if you dropped it on its "head". Currently I am using the ZI with as 40/1,4 Nokton and by being pessimistic about the 35 frame coverage it works well. Using a rangefinder camera does require that you give up some of the precision of a SLR for framing. but the advantages far outweighs the disadvantages.
The M2 is a classic and it does require that you think and plan a bit ahead when you shoot. As a rule I find that with a non metered camera I shoot faster than with any metered body (and screw up exposures a bit more). The M2 gives you a feeling of acomplishment that an "auto" everything camera does not give.
Of course, ideally you should have one of each! For now though, I would suggest the ZI and set up a "piggy" bank for a M2 in the future. This allows you to pick and choose which M2 to get as they are all used, whilst the ZI is available new.
You can save a lot of money by going to VC and Zeiss lenses and put the difference in the M2 fund too. You do not loose anything in lens quality anymore. Both the VC lenses and the ZI lenses can match most of the Leica lenses (exception being the 50/1,4 Asph. and the 75f2 Summicron).
Carzee
unpimp deine auto-kamera!
Tom, thx for the clue on the wear marks on the shutter speed collar. I have used my enlarger lens to magnify it and check for marks on my M2. Nothing found, its like its a replacement part or something.
So besides that clue you have given us and the film pressure plate, what other easy to inspect parts tell the story. The lens mount? An obvious thought I had was paint chips and wear on the take-up film spool but its like new too.
So besides that clue you have given us and the film pressure plate, what other easy to inspect parts tell the story. The lens mount? An obvious thought I had was paint chips and wear on the take-up film spool but its like new too.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
Obviuosly you have a "little used" M2. The take up spool is otherwise a good indicator. If there is heavy brassing at the entrance to the flat spring that holds the film, you know that it has been used a lot. Very often you can find new dials and take-up spools installed to "raise" the value. It used to be easy to find these items, but now a new dial will set you back $100+ and the spool about $40 so most sellers dont bother anymore.
The eyelet for the strap is also a good indicator, if there is heavy wear in them, it i reasonable to assume that it has been used a lot. Of course the finder should be clear and no little specks (caused by the blackening compund used for the finder assembly flaking off) and the focussing patch should be clear and well defined.
The edge of the film counter dial will also show wear on heavy users, you can see brassing showing through the chrome as well at the surface of the top-plate just at the rewind knob. Of course often you have the typical scratches from the MR Meter, but that usually indicates that it was used by an amateaur rather than a pro.
The advance should be smooth, with no mechanical sound (almost sounds like it is gritty) although that is something that any used M can have prior to a CLA.
Also check the back plate - are the two little rubber stops at the top corners intact. Flip the back door open and remove the lens and cycle through all the speeds (put your eye right at the shutter opening and aim the camera at a bright light source and trigger the shutter. You wont be able to tell if the speeds are dead on, but you can check that the curtains are opening properly, you should be able to "spot" the light even at 1/1000. At the slow speeds check that the curtains travel across the opening wih a even speed. Also look at the 2nd curtain when it stops at the end of its travel. On the leding edge of the curtain, there is a metal bar (it holds the curtain straight vertically as well as provides the attachment for the "straps" or "tapes" that are attached to the shutter drum. If you can see this bar at the left (from the back) when the shutter has stopped, the shutter needs adjustment. The shutter blinds should be evenly colored black and smooth. If there is discolored patches or wrinkles it is probably at the end of its usefulness and needs replacement. The shutter cloth also tends to "stiffen" with age and can show small cracks.
None of this is bad, but it is something to take into consideration when you are looking at a used M. It can all be fixed - but at a price. If the finder is "shot' you might not want to deal with it as that will set you back $3-400, but most everything else can be fixed with a CLA and even a shutter blind replacement can be a good deal if the camera is cheap enough. The good thing is that once the CLA is done and you keep using the camera, it should last a long time!
Cosmetics never bothered me as long as it works perfect. Mintish cameras scare me as " where has this camera been for the last 40+ years?". Often you get heftier repair bills for the mint cameras, because everything is dried out. The well used and well kept camera is a better deal, unless you are a collector.
The eyelet for the strap is also a good indicator, if there is heavy wear in them, it i reasonable to assume that it has been used a lot. Of course the finder should be clear and no little specks (caused by the blackening compund used for the finder assembly flaking off) and the focussing patch should be clear and well defined.
The edge of the film counter dial will also show wear on heavy users, you can see brassing showing through the chrome as well at the surface of the top-plate just at the rewind knob. Of course often you have the typical scratches from the MR Meter, but that usually indicates that it was used by an amateaur rather than a pro.
The advance should be smooth, with no mechanical sound (almost sounds like it is gritty) although that is something that any used M can have prior to a CLA.
Also check the back plate - are the two little rubber stops at the top corners intact. Flip the back door open and remove the lens and cycle through all the speeds (put your eye right at the shutter opening and aim the camera at a bright light source and trigger the shutter. You wont be able to tell if the speeds are dead on, but you can check that the curtains are opening properly, you should be able to "spot" the light even at 1/1000. At the slow speeds check that the curtains travel across the opening wih a even speed. Also look at the 2nd curtain when it stops at the end of its travel. On the leding edge of the curtain, there is a metal bar (it holds the curtain straight vertically as well as provides the attachment for the "straps" or "tapes" that are attached to the shutter drum. If you can see this bar at the left (from the back) when the shutter has stopped, the shutter needs adjustment. The shutter blinds should be evenly colored black and smooth. If there is discolored patches or wrinkles it is probably at the end of its usefulness and needs replacement. The shutter cloth also tends to "stiffen" with age and can show small cracks.
None of this is bad, but it is something to take into consideration when you are looking at a used M. It can all be fixed - but at a price. If the finder is "shot' you might not want to deal with it as that will set you back $3-400, but most everything else can be fixed with a CLA and even a shutter blind replacement can be a good deal if the camera is cheap enough. The good thing is that once the CLA is done and you keep using the camera, it should last a long time!
Cosmetics never bothered me as long as it works perfect. Mintish cameras scare me as " where has this camera been for the last 40+ years?". Often you get heftier repair bills for the mint cameras, because everything is dried out. The well used and well kept camera is a better deal, unless you are a collector.
Carzee
unpimp deine auto-kamera!
Thats it -the holy grail -"where has this camera been for the last 40+ years?"
I sure would like to know something about it. I guess we would all like the story of our treasures.
I owned a Land-Rover for a decade -its third decade- and I researched its prior service. It was very interesting. Different to the world of cameras, there is no such animal as a LNIB Series 2A...
I sure would like to know something about it. I guess we would all like the story of our treasures.
I owned a Land-Rover for a decade -its third decade- and I researched its prior service. It was very interesting. Different to the world of cameras, there is no such animal as a LNIB Series 2A...
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
Carzee said:
There is a similarity between Land Rovers and M2's. Built to last and simple to own. We have had three Land Rovers, a LWB Carawagon (1966 model) 6 cyl., a 109 Wagon Dormobile Diesel 1969 that took us around Asia and Africa in 1970 (including crossing Sahara) and the last one was a 1973 109 diesel (custom built from the factory) that we drove from the Canadian East coast up to Alaska and down to the US in 1974. The last one had heavy duty suspension and after a couple of 1000 miles on logging roads most internal organs had shaken themselves loose! Like the M2, you never doubt that it would make it to your destination.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
NIKON KIU said:And I thought you were a real Nikon-man!!!
Kiu
Scratch any M user and you will find someone who wants to own a Nikon Rf and vice versa! I have more M's than Nikon Rf's, but the factor is about 2 to 1.
Glenn2
Well-known
Hi Tom, Interesting that you've also been a LandRover fan. I got into Rovers and Leicas in the late sixties,... ended up owning five petrol LandRovers, and five M Leicas. Only drove the Rovers in BC and Alberta, but have packed Leicas all over the planet with many trips to Asia and India. Sold my last LR (a series 3, SWB) about ten years ago, but fortunately had enough sense to hang onto my favorite cameras, a pair of M4's. Horst in Vancouver gave them both a CLA about a year ago so am good for quite a few more rolls.
Used to use the Rovers for trips into the Rockies on photographic expeditions. Usual gear was a Technika for serious stuff with Leica for backup or when I was just too damn lazy/tired to setup the 4x5.
Glenn
Used to use the Rovers for trips into the Rockies on photographic expeditions. Usual gear was a Technika for serious stuff with Leica for backup or when I was just too damn lazy/tired to setup the 4x5.
Glenn
Attachments
ywenz
Veteran
I would love to own a Land Rover but the new ones are notorious for poor reliability... it's too bad. It's also unfortunate that they don't design the Defender to be street legal in the U.S.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
Glenn,
I think I have seen that gray Series III around some time ago! Not too many L/R's in Vancouver, so you notice the ones that fly the streets.
Horst at any given time has one or two of my cameras in for service. At the moment none, but once summer is over and he is down in the basement, I have some for him to revive. My battered old MD-2 has decided that all speeds faster than 1 second are unnecessary so that is one. I go there often enough that Shadow brings me toys to play with! For the uninformed ;-), Shadow is Horst's German Shepard and is a nice dog. Shes comes and greets you at the gate and then blocks your entry to the workshop as you then would spend all the time talking cameras with Horst and not throwing balls with Shadow!
I think I have seen that gray Series III around some time ago! Not too many L/R's in Vancouver, so you notice the ones that fly the streets.
Horst at any given time has one or two of my cameras in for service. At the moment none, but once summer is over and he is down in the basement, I have some for him to revive. My battered old MD-2 has decided that all speeds faster than 1 second are unnecessary so that is one. I go there often enough that Shadow brings me toys to play with! For the uninformed ;-), Shadow is Horst's German Shepard and is a nice dog. Shes comes and greets you at the gate and then blocks your entry to the workshop as you then would spend all the time talking cameras with Horst and not throwing balls with Shadow!
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HuubL
hunter-gatherer
As a brand new M2 owner I just read this great thread. Still wondering why an M2 would be better than an M4, but I hope to experience that once mine (still in Germany, but expecting it here end of next week) will have had its CLA.