M240 family likes & future speculation

CameraQuest

CameraQuest

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I like the M10 aka M240 family (M240/M-P) for some reasons I don't often see posted here.
Sure, I like the much higher usable ISO, longer battery life, quieter shutter, lack of sensor problems (so far),

but the biggie to me is live view via the LCD or somewhat mediocre digital visoflex:

Live view on an M body opens up a whole new world to the Leica shooter.

1) easy closeups with any Leica lens. Just add an extension tube or even a close up lens! The need for that expensive Leica M 90mm macro lens is a thing of the past.
2) easy use of practically any 35mm SLR lens via the appropriate SLR to M lens adapter. Now I can easily integrate my main Nikon SLR and Leica RF lens systems.
3) easy checking of lens problems. Its easier to find a possible focusing problems with live view.

I personally have no use or appreciation for the M240's video. That where the future speculation comes in.

Rumors are that the next major update of will put a big emphasis on major video updates. So much so, that the traditional M series body might be undergoing major changes.
Result? Possibly that today's M's will be the last of the M's with a traditional M series handling. Time will tell.

Stephen
 
With the recent availability of A7 filter stacks conversion I have finally decided that digital Ms are flat out too expensive for what they are. The combination of the rangefinder experience and superior performance on wide-angle M lenses is attractive enough for me to pay the $5,000 premium of a M type 240 over a regular A7. But with only the experience benefit left and the huge depreciation of the digital M bodies, I think I might as well shoot film RFs and leave digital to Sony.

The issue is that all of these things, macro and SLR lens use included and particularly video, is considerably easier using a mirrorless body rather than an M. I can shoot my Noctilux and 21mm Summilux without worrying about external VFs or calibration being off.

I'm looking into a Canadian M4 or even the new MP as a replacement of my R3M, though...:D
 
+1 ... that sums up exactly what attracted me to the 240 and made it almost worth the asking price! Live view and the ability to slap an accessory EVF on it are the camera's major pluses. The traditional M handling and attributes that a rangefinder offers are what you expect but being able to put almost any lens you want on the thing is the deal maker IMO.

I am sooooo tempted to buy one of those Petzval lenses off you Stephen! :D
 
...Rumors are that the next major update of will put a big emphasis on major video updates. So much so, that the traditional M series body might be undergoing major changes.
Result? Possibly that today's M's will be the last of the M's with a traditional M series handling. Time will tell.
Click to expand...
Well, I hope not. A Mamiya 7 II size rangefinder with a Leica red dot stuck to the front of it would be a hideous abomination.

Want to make videos? Then go buy a dedicated video camera - duh!! :rolleyes:

The M240 can record only 10 minutes of video at a time before automatically shutting off. Why? Product laws in Germany mandate that if the camera can video longer than 10 minutes continuously, it has to be classified as a video camera, not a still camera. That is according to the Leica NJ tech guys.

Of course, the redoubtable Messrs. Kaufmann, Schopf, Zimmermann, Holzer et al won't listen to the likes of me. Nonetheless, I will say this: It would be a travesty to trash the dimensions, handling and legendary aesyhetics of the M camera in order to upgrade a supposed "benefit" (video) that is of questionable value on the M240 to begin with. IMHO, the M240 is "new and improved" enough as it is.
 
The next M will certainly have better LV/EVF/video capabilities but it will keep its rangefinder hopefully so i don't see why its handling should change in any way. I just hope it will be faster than the M240 but i don't hold my breath.
 
What I'd like is a Japanese Leica knockoff for $2500. Fuji has the sensor and Leica has the controls. Just need a marriage between the two. Fuji's controls are screwy, but their sensor is stupendous.
 
Good post Steven!

I agree that LV is one of the features I appreciate the most of the M240. In my case it's not so much using other lenses (which is really great for those who do), but just for composition. I have lots of photos that would have been impossible to take if I couldn't pull the camera from my face. While I much prefer focusing with the rangefinder, I'll flip LV on in a heartbeat if I find a cool angle or something above, below, or that needs outstretched arms.

I also agree with you on Movie Mode, but it doesn't bother me that the feature is there. It would be REALLY NICE if via a firmware update Leica would allow that M button to be re-assigned to something else instead of just turning it off. It could be assigned to call up Greycard WB or B/W mode, for example. (Can someone send that suggestion to them :D)

I sure hope the M rangefinder does not go away in favor of a Movie camera.

Here's my take on how they should setup their Lineup:

Compacts (The cheap Leicas by Panasonic)
Leica T (Their "Mirrorless")
Leica M (both CCD & CMOS)
Leica V (Video Centric M mount)
Leica S (For those who shoot Tyra Banks, etc.)
 
I have several cameras that do excellent video.

I've had an M9 for three years. Lovely camera, beautiful photos, but sluggish in operation. Mine came up with the infamous sensor corrosion. Leica offered to fix it free, and offered me an upgrade to the M-P for $3750 as well.

So I went to the local camera shop and did an evaluation of the M typ 240 using the Nokton 50/1.5 ASPH (LTM), Summilux 35/1.4 v2, and Ultron 28/2.

My impressions:

- The M 240 shutter and overall responsiveness is FAR better than the M9. Feels right, doesn't feel laggy or get blocked up with multiple single shots.

- The new viewfinder frame line illuminator is clean, crisp, and clear. Somehow, the view through viewfinder feels less cluttered. The rangefinder seemed about as crisp to align as with the M9, but overall the viewfinder experience is better.

- I've imported all the exposures into Lightroom 5.7.1. Auto white balance in the JPEGs and raws is improved over the M9 in all the various shots, it's right on the money in most cases.

- All the shots where I was critically careful to set the focus and used ISO 1600 (high enough shutter speed) are bang on the money sharp, crisp, clean and noiseless. There is no banding apparent in any of the photos I made, even to the highest ISO setting.

- There's neither degradation nor loss in the rendering character of the 'Lux 35 v2 or Nokton 50. (They're no better than I see on film or on the M9, and no worse either.) Didn't really look hard for the Ultron, but it seems to be a less prone to color shifting.

- None of these three lenses, even with lens code set to OFF, show any color shifting. (The 28 and 35 show a very small amount with the M9.)

For me this is a no-brainer: the M/M-P typ 240 is simply a better camera than the M9. I placed my order for the M-P. I should have it in a week or so.

What the future holds? Since I already have several cameras that do excellent video should I choose to get involved in video, and I have no particular time to do so at present, whether future M cameras become superior video cameras or not isn't a big deal to me. I like how the M typ 240 handles, I suspect Leica knows enough about what M users like and dislike not to destroy their user base. Beyond that, I don't care to speculate.

The M typ 240 has enough performance to keep me happy for a long time to come, all else being equal. But I'll keep my eye on what Leica does. Should it ever be something useful to me and appealing, yes, I'll buy another Leica M.

G
 
Loyal opposition. Yes, shutter, write speed, frame lines, LV, all appreciated. Realistically getting the handling to where the M9 should have been. I see the high iso improvement as about 1.5 stops over the M9 and two stops under the monochrom. Was hoping that an M240 could replace M9/MM combo. Not for real low light i encounter in small clubs. LV is just ok, no scrolling and no swivel screen.

For me it's about M glass and the M is the finest platform for that glass despite its nits.
 
I never used movie mode, and only tried LV a few times just because it was there so why not. I have since disabled the buttons for both those functions. I use my M240 as I have used M cameras for decades, as a pure rangefinder still camera. My only quibble with the M240 is the white frame lines are too bright, which makes it actually harder for me to focus with the rangefinder, and the red ones are difficult for me to use in daylight. If Leica came with a new body that had the M240's sensor, quiet shutter recock, and more powerful battery but otherwise identical with an M9 for $5K I would go for one for sure.
 
CameraQuest said:
...Rumors are that the next major update of will put a big emphasis on major video updates. So much so, that the traditional M series body might be undergoing major changes.
Result? Possibly that today's M's will be the last of the M's with a traditional M series handling. Time will tell.

Stephen
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Not going to happen.
The ghost of the M5 still roams the halls at Wetzlar.
 
Kwesi said:
Not going to happen.
The ghost of the M5 still roams the halls at Wetzlar.
Click to expand...

The M5 got a bad rep from those who did not look at the production figures.

Had the M5 been Leica's only M mount in production, M5 sales would have been fine.

The problem was the super compact Leica CL sold at the same time with the M5.

The CL far outsold the M5 at far lower profit point.

Leica has never again produced a compact low priced M camera. No doubt we will never see that again.

Stephen
 
CameraQuest said:
The M5 got a bad rep from those who did not look at the production figures.

Had the M5 been Leica's only M mount in production, M5 sales would have been fine.

The problem was the super compact Leica CL sold at the same time with the M5.

The CL far outsold the M5 at far lower profit point.

Leica has never again produced a compact low priced M camera. No doubt we will never see that again.
Click to expand...

The T system is the digital CL, IMO.

G
 
CameraQuest said:
Not in mine. No M mount.
T sales are dead.
Some dealers don't even carry them in stock.
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Whether they sell or not, it is the design concept that they service. Most of the folks I know who've bought one love it, and use their M lenses on it with the mount adapter as well as one or two of the native mount lenses.

Leica also didn't have the range of fixed lens cameras then that they do now. The X and X Vario are two other cameras that take the place of a CL for most buyers.

An inexpensive M-mount won't happen because good sensors for M-mount lenses are very expensive, unless you drop to APS-C. And most modern users want AF, zooms, etc.

G
 
Godfrey said:
Whether they sell or not, it is the design concept that they service. Most of the folks I know who've bought one love it, and use their M lenses on it with the mount adapter as well as one or two of the native mount lenses.

Leica also didn't have the range of fixed lens cameras then that they do now. The X and X Vario are two other cameras that take the place of a CL for most buyers.

An inexpensive M-mount won't happen because good sensors for M-mount lenses are very expensive, unless you drop to APS-C. And most modern users want AF, zooms, etc.

G
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+1 I think Leica's product development is on a roll. You can sure get a better color-capable FF sensor for your M-mount lenses than what's in the M9/M240 bodies with the Sony alpha series, but M lens compatibility isn't good. The Sony alphas are a helluva proposition. Limited M glass compatibility, much better compatibility with a range of MF and AF lenses from multiple makers, great sensors, lightweight, not-so-great interface (i guess one can't have it all).

Still, for ease and pleasure of use, within its designed sphere, nothing beats M glass on an M body.
 
How about a cheaper M camera?

Take the internal of the A7 (minus the EVF) and stick it into a R3M. I have both and the camera is about the same thickness, same width and even the height is the same if you take the Rangefinder off the R3M!!!

A7 (1299on sony site) + R3M (670 on cameraquest) = $1969. MSRP 2500 = Profit.

Leica could just follow the same formula and stick it into their own camera body and charge 3500 and call it M-A7 or something and make profit. But they won't do that...

*EDIT... (too excited to talk about the idea forgot the reason of mentioning) the reason for that idea above was because A7 has a nice live view and focus peaking too. I do like the tiltable LCD on it. If someone can make it happen with an M mount! Then its combine my favorite form factor to use and live view + tilt LCD for some creative shots at tough angles!

Roger
 
Live view is the only reason I would love a M240 and the only reason I want one. I have to agree with Stephan that I don't know why no one mentions it. It would add a level, at least for me, of ease of shooting. Sometimes raising a camera to the eye would spoil a moment.
 
kbg32 said:
Live view is the only reason I would love a M240 and the only reason I want one. I have to agree with Stephan that I don't know why no one mentions it. It would add a level, at least for me, of ease of shooting. Sometimes raising a camera to the eye would spoil a moment.
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Without a tilting/articulating screen, the camera still needs to be raised to something close to eye level. Not right in front of the eye, sure, but at a level that enables your eye to view the screen adequately. Not terribly stealthy or easy, imo.

Also, the M240 implementation of LV doesn't permit the user to scroll the focus point around the LCD. Kludgy if your point of sharpest focus isn't in the center of the screen, whether on tripod or not.

rogazilla said:
*EDIT... (too excited to talk about the idea forgot the reason of mentioning) the reason for that idea above was because A7 has a nice live view and focus peaking too. I do like the tiltable LCD on it. If someone can make it happen with an M mount! Then its combine my favorite form factor to use and live view + tilt LCD for some creative shots at tough angles!
Roger
Click to expand...

+1
 
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