airfrogusmc
Veteran
I don't use LR or SE and both came with my camera. Photoshop for me. CS6.
M262 Blowing the Highlights
- Thread starter Pioneer
- Start date
- Latest activity Latest activity:
- Replies 62
- Views 8K
Lss
Well-known
Leica M is a great camera for working quickly. That's big part of why I use one.
tonyc
Established
Hello
One thought.
When I'm using an M9, and shooting something vaguely critical
I always use an incident meter.
It is much more acurate than relying on the "curtain" bounce
internal meter of the camera
It is best to work out the true DR and ISO of you camera with
some tests with the meter, working out the true ISO with
icident reading just before highlights clip by examing the histograms etc.
But once you have done that you can set the meter to an
offsett [M9 ISO 400 is really 320 or whatever] and happily
shoot away.
If it is easier to use the camera internal meter, then
the quick and dirty version of this is to take an exposure lock
reading of a mid grey in your scene, where I live local concrete
and some tarmac work very well for this.
Have fun
-TC
One thought.
When I'm using an M9, and shooting something vaguely critical
I always use an incident meter.
It is much more acurate than relying on the "curtain" bounce
internal meter of the camera
It is best to work out the true DR and ISO of you camera with
some tests with the meter, working out the true ISO with
icident reading just before highlights clip by examing the histograms etc.
But once you have done that you can set the meter to an
offsett [M9 ISO 400 is really 320 or whatever] and happily
shoot away.
If it is easier to use the camera internal meter, then
the quick and dirty version of this is to take an exposure lock
reading of a mid grey in your scene, where I live local concrete
and some tarmac work very well for this.
Have fun
-TC
Pioneer
Veteran
All great ideas.
TC, I will be carrying my gray (grey??) card for this tonight as I will be using the Leica at a game tonight. Metering off of a card has been suggested by others as well so I thought it might be worth a try.
I haven't been doing it but I will carry my portable Weston meter and use it as well and see if there are any differences between the in-camera meter and hand held.
The light can change pretty quickly at dusk in the high country so I suspect I'll be referencing the card frequently. Not to mention when the lights become the primary light source.
I may also have to check on the temperature of the stadium lights to help with my processing. Details, details, details. 🙂
TC, I will be carrying my gray (grey??) card for this tonight as I will be using the Leica at a game tonight. Metering off of a card has been suggested by others as well so I thought it might be worth a try.
I haven't been doing it but I will carry my portable Weston meter and use it as well and see if there are any differences between the in-camera meter and hand held.
The light can change pretty quickly at dusk in the high country so I suspect I'll be referencing the card frequently. Not to mention when the lights become the primary light source.
I may also have to check on the temperature of the stadium lights to help with my processing. Details, details, details. 🙂
rbelyell
Well-known
no, here is how OP described his issue:
''If the sky is right then the ground is so dark that recovery is difficult. If the ground action is right then the sky is completely white. ''
thats not a metering issue. thats lack of dynamic range. trying to treat this as a 'user' issue will only frustrate the user. there is no amount of user machination or techno-babble that is going to change this result. see it for what it is and move on.
user237428934
User deletion pending
The dynamic range of the M240/M262 sensor is really good. If you constantly blow the highlights in the raw data then this is a user error.
sojournerphoto
Veteran
If you read the whole comment that was exactly what I said.
Highway 61
Revisited
I didn't read the whole thread because I assume it contains the inevitable "shall I expose to the right or have I to expose to the left" debate.
With any recent digital camera fitted with a sensor not creating digital noise and rather sensitive to photonic noise (which is quite the case with everything available on the market now, contraringly to what happened fifty years ago), the best thing is to underexpose (by setting the exposure compensation to at least -1/3 all the time) and meter for the highlights, as you used to do with Kodachrome 25. If you don't want to bother with a selective metering, set the underexposing to -2/3 or even -1 and let the camera meter.
This implies that you shoot RAW only and accept the idea of spending lots of time at post-processing when back home, file after file.
Anyway, there are situations where the ground is going to remain dark and the bright sky is going to remain bright in spite of all the recent digital imaging technology improvements. There are lighting situations with which taking photos isn't a good idea, even if some advertisings tell that you can focus in a 100% dark tunnel or take good pictures at noon in a salt lake.
Sometimes it's interesting to just look at things with our own eyes, so that we can realize what we're seeing, before thinking of pulling the camera off the bag, just for the sake of depressing the shutter release button.
With any recent digital camera fitted with a sensor not creating digital noise and rather sensitive to photonic noise (which is quite the case with everything available on the market now, contraringly to what happened fifty years ago), the best thing is to underexpose (by setting the exposure compensation to at least -1/3 all the time) and meter for the highlights, as you used to do with Kodachrome 25. If you don't want to bother with a selective metering, set the underexposing to -2/3 or even -1 and let the camera meter.
This implies that you shoot RAW only and accept the idea of spending lots of time at post-processing when back home, file after file.
Anyway, there are situations where the ground is going to remain dark and the bright sky is going to remain bright in spite of all the recent digital imaging technology improvements. There are lighting situations with which taking photos isn't a good idea, even if some advertisings tell that you can focus in a 100% dark tunnel or take good pictures at noon in a salt lake.
Sometimes it's interesting to just look at things with our own eyes, so that we can realize what we're seeing, before thinking of pulling the camera off the bag, just for the sake of depressing the shutter release button.
ernstk
Retro Renaissance
There's no lack of dynamic range in the M sensor. It's just nonsense to suggest that.
I can easily recover 3-4 stops of detail from shadows, even if I blatantly underexpose.
newsgrunt
Well-known
This is why I won't be buying the lcd'less M. The lcd is not just for chomping but this is precisely why it's useful. Check the histogram etc.. Not sure about M cameras but on my D4s and D750 I have the preview set so blown highlights are easy to see (blinking highlights). Then I adjust exposure accordingly as there is no simple rule of drop down 1 or 2 stops, it's a situation by situation matter.
One could just shoot and let raw handle mistakes But I prefer to nail exposures at the time, as best I can so there's less agro in post 😉 ymmv
One could just shoot and let raw handle mistakes But I prefer to nail exposures at the time, as best I can so there's less agro in post 😉 ymmv
Highway 61
Revisited
When the subject is gone, it's gone. Unless you're shooting landscapes or stills only, re-taking the photo several times until the histogram displayed on the LCD screen tells there aren't blown highlights questions the photographic gesture itself.
How about painting instead ?
willie_901
Veteran
The Leica M262's analog dynamic range is excellent. All one has to do is expose in order to take advantage of the camera's inherent dynamic range.
One does expose to the the left or to the right. Instead one uses raw files and takes Emil Martinec's advice to maximizes exposure - ME.
Here is a professor Martinec's exposure advice:
"maximize [exposure] subject to three constraints:
(1) maintaining needed DoF, which limits how much you can open up the aperture;
(2) freezing motion, which limits the exposure time;
(3) retaining highlight detail, by not clipping wanted highlight areas in any channel.
Note that ISO is not part of exposure. Exposure has only to do with aperture and shutter speed. Maximizing exposure guarantees that one captures as many photons as possible subject to photographic constraints, and therefore optimizes S/N."
It turns out the prime factor in the analog dynamic range is the sensor-data stream's SNR.
Where one has DR challenges with all digital cameras is when proper rendering of every single intense highlight region is required to make the photograph.
Also, it could be useful to realize highlights can be lost in two very different ways. In the first the sensor's full-well capacity is exceeded. This is not clipping. The sensor simply can not record to all the light. In the second amplification of the DC voltages (a.k.a. ISO) that leave the sensor assembly after the shutter closes exceeds the ADC's maximum input voltage. This is clipping. In both cases highlight region information is lost
A detailed technical explanation for the ME approach is found in these classic articlesreference. They're old, but the basics are completely relevant today.
One does expose to the the left or to the right. Instead one uses raw files and takes Emil Martinec's advice to maximizes exposure - ME.
Here is a professor Martinec's exposure advice:
"maximize [exposure] subject to three constraints:
(1) maintaining needed DoF, which limits how much you can open up the aperture;
(2) freezing motion, which limits the exposure time;
(3) retaining highlight detail, by not clipping wanted highlight areas in any channel.
Note that ISO is not part of exposure. Exposure has only to do with aperture and shutter speed. Maximizing exposure guarantees that one captures as many photons as possible subject to photographic constraints, and therefore optimizes S/N."
It turns out the prime factor in the analog dynamic range is the sensor-data stream's SNR.
Where one has DR challenges with all digital cameras is when proper rendering of every single intense highlight region is required to make the photograph.
Also, it could be useful to realize highlights can be lost in two very different ways. In the first the sensor's full-well capacity is exceeded. This is not clipping. The sensor simply can not record to all the light. In the second amplification of the DC voltages (a.k.a. ISO) that leave the sensor assembly after the shutter closes exceeds the ADC's maximum input voltage. This is clipping. In both cases highlight region information is lost
A detailed technical explanation for the ME approach is found in these classic articlesreference. They're old, but the basics are completely relevant today.
uhoh7
Veteran
Using A7 and M9 often side by side, I relate to Pioneer. You have to watch the highlights on the A7 carefully. M9 also but honestly, much less so.
Supposedly the DR is way better on the Sony. But the M9 files can take boosting the blacks in a way the Sony cannot, I think because the RAWs are so much better on the Leica.
Anyway, all the FF Leicas seem to need more work in post for many of us than the kodachrome M9, including the MM LOL
Supposedly the DR is way better on the Sony. But the M9 files can take boosting the blacks in a way the Sony cannot, I think because the RAWs are so much better on the Leica.
Anyway, all the FF Leicas seem to need more work in post for many of us than the kodachrome M9, including the MM LOL
Kent
Finally at home...
Perhaps it would be helpful to provide a download link to two or three photos (in RAW) which show those issues.
rbelyell
Well-known
tom, did you not read what OP said and what i quoted? if you did, and if what he said was correct, then it is a DR issue because he is either unable to recover highlights if low light areas are properly exposed or unable to recover shadow if highlight areas are properly exposed. there is no other explanation other than a faulty camera.
as i read comments it seems person after person chooses to simply ignore what OP said in this regard. they also ignore his claim that the same scenes are properly rendered by his 5d, his m9 and his pentax 5iis! to just keep repeating 'the M sensor is great' has no bearing whatsoever on the experience OP is having. to recap:
scene properly rendered by other cameras
same scene either yields blown highlights or unrecoverable shadows with the M. he has metered for both and not gotten a satisfactory result, while he has gotten a satisfactory result with other cameras. honestly, either OP is flat out wrong, or he has a lemon or the camera cannot capture DR the same as his other tools. i'm not knocking leica, just listening to OP and following the logic.
Highway 61
Revisited
This would help us to check whether this very M262 might not have a faulty sensor or CPU indeed.
Richard G
Veteran
Pioneer, Lightroom looks intimidating, maybe, but most of what's needed can be done quickly with a few sliders on the right. Shoot raw. It's scary to think of, but an actual picture will still appear, not a whole lot of 1s and 0s. Exposure, shadows, highlights, contrast. You might hardly need to touch anything else. Different settings in Lightroom, filters, will recover sky detail where you might think there is almost none.
Shoot manual with anything wider than a 35, or lock exposure after pointing the camera down. A 28 and wider just takes too much account of the sky with these cameras.
Shoot manual with anything wider than a 35, or lock exposure after pointing the camera down. A 28 and wider just takes too much account of the sky with these cameras.
rogue_designer
Reciprocity Failure
Aye, but that was the point I was making. These newer sensors are able to pull data pretty cleanly from the shadows - so I would err towards underexposure to preserve highlight detail. Knowing that the shadows are recoverable (and still quite clean).
ernstk
Retro Renaissance
Completely agree...
user237428934
User deletion pending
I read it, but I think differently about what a "DR issue" is. For me, DR is a fundamental characteristic of that sensor. So all sensors of that type are capable of capturing a specific lighting situation or none is. When we have one faulty sensor, then it's not a DR issue.....my point of view.
