M3 Purchase Dilemma

PhotoMat

PhotoMat

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Hi All:

I have a bit of a dilemma regarding the possible purchase of a Leica M3 kit. First of all, the selling price of $1200 is for an M3 (serial over 1 million, 1961 production date), 50mm Summilux first-version (1961 production), Leicameter and leather case. The seller is selling this camera as is -- operation is unknown. I assume that the camera would require a CLA. Photos show the camera to be in good cosmetic condition -- vulcanite is intact and only minor bright marks, with the exception of a couple of small marks on the top plate from the meter. The summilux appears to be in good shape as well -- some dust but it does not appear to have any fungus.

The auction house selling the camera is not familiar with the workings of vintage rangefinders and are unable to provide detailed information. Unfortunately, I am also unable to handle this camera first-hand. My gut feeling is to pass on this kit, but the price doesn't seem to be too bad if the only thing needed is a CLA. It's a gamble -- what do you think?

Thanks!
 
It's a gamble, but with the Lux, if no fungus and camera RF not separated (everything else can be easily cleaned), it's actually a very good deal.

Best,

Roland.
 
Is it an online auction, or can you physically inspect the camera before bidding on it ? If it is online and there is any doubt (too many "if"s), I'd say just wait for the next one. Good luck with making the right decision !
 
I agree it's a pretty good risk. I'll bet, given how well the M3 is made, that it'll work OK. The cosmetic condition leads to an assumption that it wasn't sitting in a damp basement, which would cause problems. I had one (since sold) that didn't work below 1/30th, but after winding and dry firing a bit, lo and behold all the slow speeds came back. The main thing I'd be concerned about is whether the rangefinder is desilvered -- that's expensive to replace. Anything else should be handled by a CLA.
 
I would say towards no, but it would be statisically okay if you did. Financially, it is probably barely worth the risk. (I'm an analyst).

The antique camera price guide says a excellent but used condition Leica M3 (over 1MM) is worth $950 and the first editions Summilux is worth $750. So it would otherwise cost you $1700 to buy that camera and lens if they are in excellent but used condition.

Your item won't have a return policy, and they can't comment on the true workability. I think you have to assume at least a CLA on the lens and body. So the CLA with shipping is what, $250? So we are at a mininum of $1450.

Then I would think about the percentage chance of something/s worse being wrong, combined with the cost. Perhaps you have a 5% chance that the camera is unusable and unfixable. Then you may have a 25% chance that you need a more extensive repair which costs $500.

Running a Monte Carlo simulation, it says that on average it'll cost you $1630. That is less than the $1700 it would otherwise cost.

An easier way to think about it is that you stand to save $250 ($1700-$1450). The risk costs 5% * $1200 + 25% * $500 = $185. So the benefit is $65 greater than the cost of the risk.

However, these probabilities long run averages and minor changes in the assumptions can swing the result. I wouldn't do it. To me, the most you stand to save is $250, compared with the cost of worse problems (and the emotional strain you'll feel if you toss away $1200).

I bet you can find better deals out there.
 
chris00nj said:
The antique camera price guide says a excellent but used condition Leica M3 (over 1MM) is worth $950 and the first editions Summilux is worth $750. So it would otherwise cost you $1700 to buy that camera and lens if they are in excellent but used condition.
Click to expand...

I don't feel that the prices on that website reflect current fair market values. The prices shown there are consistently too low.

chris00nj said:
...I think you have to assume at least a CLA on the lens and body. So the CLA with shipping is what, $250? So we are at a minimum of $1450.
Click to expand...

If you include the CLA price in the camera the OP has a chance to buy, you have to include the CLA in the prices you got from the 'price guide' (any Leica stuff that sells at those prices, especially the bodies, will need service).

So, your comparison needs to be reworked. With the CLA factored into your hypothetical 'price guide' body and lens, the OP's deal becomes significantly sweeter.
 
J J Kapsberger said:
I don't feel that the prices on that website reflect current fair market values. The prices shown there are consistently too low.

If you include the CLA price in the camera the OP has a chance to buy, you have to include the CLA in the prices you got from the 'price guide' (any Leica stuff that sells at those prices, especially the bodies, will need service).

So, your comparison needs to be reworked. With the CLA factored into your hypothetical 'price guide' body and lens, the OP's deal becomes significantly sweeter.
Click to expand...

I've actually seen the values to be pretty decent. Of course, there are many variables. KEH has an excellent condition single stroke M3 for $919. While they don't have a Summilux, they have a Summicron DR 50/2 for $550 without the finder, while the Guide says that lens, with the finder is $575. I don't think KEH stuff requires rework if it is classified as excellent.

The exact numbers can, of course, be debated. I'm not even sure how close my CLA number was. I was instead trying to focus on a thought process for PhotoMat to consider.

To all those wondering, it was a uniform distribution. (and the nerd alert was quite appropriate. :p)
 
Thanks for your input guys. After further communication with the seller, I've decided to be Mr. Vegas and gamble a bit -- the M3 is on its way! I'll keep you posted (or hide my head in shame and embarrassment).

Matt
 
Well, guess what came in the mail? Yes, I took the gamble and am happy to say that the M3 kit is better than I expected. The M3 appears to have spent the majority of its life clothed in the ever-ready case. The vulcanite is near-perfect -- only a small section less than 1/8" wide is missing from below the lens mount. A few bright marks on the base plate and some slight rub marks courtesy of the Leicameter. All in all, the camera is in beautiful condition. The slow speeds were a bit sluggish, but they came to life by working the shutter a bit. I fully anticipated having a CLA and will most likely do so in the coming weeks.

The summilux is fantastic as well -- no "cleaning marks" or fungus. A few dust specks inside and the helicoid was somewhat stiff. A minute drop of 3 in 1 oil on the helicoid loosened up the stiff grease and now the movement is quite smooth. However, I'll most likely send the lens in with the camera as long as I'm having everything cleaned up.

To round things out, I was shocked to find that the Leicameter is fully functional as well -- I confirmed its readings against my Sekonic 508 and it's right in the ballpark. Heck, even the ever-ready case is in great shape.

This kit was being auctioned "as-is" with no option for a return. Understandably I was hesitant, but I decided to gamble and go ahead with the purchase. I'm glad that I did, and I'm sure that I fared much better than I would in Vegas.

Thanks to everyone for all of your input! I'll post some pics of the new addition in the coming weeks!

-- Matt

P.S. -- How is Youxin Ye with a CLA? I've used DAG and Sherry Krauter in the past (with good results), but I understand that DAG is pretty backlogged with work.
 
Congrats

Congrats

You will love it, I know I love mine. It's probably my favorite M, tied in use with my M8. My great M4-P follows a close second.
Enjoy it, it's a great camera.
 
It sounds your little "gamble" worked out well :) Congrats to your new toy !

About the CLA .... I was one of them praising Youxin Ye's very good and fast work on mechanical Leica cameras. However, my recent experience wasn't good at all. The last M4-P (bought used here at RFF) was according to the seller "recently CLA'd by Youxin Ye". The camera had some small oil drops visible inside the take-up spool chamber and on the backplate, when it arrived. Because the vertical RF alignment couldn't be adjusted by him (as I remember he didn't have that special tool required for M4-P and later cameras), I had sent it to Leica Japan.

They had a quick look and sent me a notice that "regarding the general condition of your camera, we recommend you to carry out the overhaul as soon as possible".

It turned out that excessive use of oil had hazed the RF, and gummed up the wind unit, shutter times were off, too. Overhaul cost, mainly removing oil (including a new wind unit) was ~ 800 US$ ...:mad:
 
Youxin

Youxin


P.S. -- How is Youxin Ye with a CLA? I've used DAG and Sherry Krauter in the past (with good results), but I understand that DAG is pretty backlogged with work.[/quote]


People often talk about working a shutter to loosten it up, and IMO, if the advance is anything other than very smooth, stop, it is dry and needs attention. If the seal is gone, and it is smooth, it has probably been serviced.

People have shreaded shutters trying to get them to work through brute force. Same with lenses, old grease needs to be removed and replaced with modern lubes, and a good cleaning. You need the right electronics to test the speeds, and I would bet the speeds are off.

I have sent several cameras to Youxin, and he has been prompt, reasonable, and excellent. He should be able to do the lens, and if he cannot you will get it back. He probably has cleaned 50 cameras for a friend who sells cameras for a living. I would send him the camera, and call him to get the story.

Your shutter will be adjusted, same with the RF, viewfinder bright, etc.

You have made a substantial investment, this will be far cheaper and the best money spent. Maybe he can patch your little vulcanite blemish as well, does not hurt to ask.


Regards, John
 
Maddoc, with all due respect, the situation you describe is not a situation where you sent a camera to Youxin Ye and was dissatified. Someone who sold you the camera told you something which may or may not have been true. You have no proof who did what to the camera you bought before you recieved it. I have had 4 direct dealings with Youxin Ye, 4 cla's, 2 m bodies and 2 screwmount bodies. Cameras came back just great, It would be a shame to discredit an exceclent repairman when you have not had a direct dealing with him. For all you know the camera fell into a barrel of oil. The point is you don't know!
 
John Elder said:
Maddoc, with all due respect, the situation you describe is not a situation where you sent a camera to Youxin Ye and was dissatified. Someone who sold you the camera told you something which may or may not have been true. You have no proof who did what to the camera you bought before you recieved it. I have had 4 direct dealings with Youxin Ye, 4 cla's, 2 m bodies and 2 screwmount bodies. Cameras came back just great, It would be a shame to discredit an exceclent repairman when you have not had a direct dealing with him. For all you know the camera fell into a barrel of oil. The point is you don't know!
Click to expand...

John Elder, I had a direct and similar experience with a Leica III and excessive oil. Oil was coming out the top plate. The camera still smells of oil/WD-40. Some 'special' rangefinder adjustments were made to correct for vertical alignment. The camera will not focus accurately from 2-5 meters now.

He was nice throughout the repair, and he offered to do his best to fix the problems. I never made a big deal here on RFF, but since you questioned Maddoc's situation, I thought I would add a data point that supports his experience. We had another thread awhile back, and Gabor's and my experience are not unique. Given your experience and those of others, I would assume that our experiences may be outliers and should not discredit him. I know many here swear by him. But our experiences did happen, and I can send you correspondence emails if you still doubt that mine was direct.
Sincerely,
Mike
 
John Elder said:
Maddoc, with all due respect, the situation you describe is not a situation where you sent a camera to Youxin Ye and was dissatified. Someone who sold you the camera told you something which may or may not have been true. You have no proof who did what to the camera you bought before you recieved it. I have had 4 direct dealings with Youxin Ye, 4 cla's, 2 m bodies and 2 screwmount bodies. Cameras came back just great, It would be a shame to discredit an exceclent repairman when you have not had a direct dealing with him. For all you know the camera fell into a barrel of oil. The point is you don't know!
Click to expand...

Dear John,

I have had 3 M3, one M4-P (a different one), and one M4 sent to Youxin Ye for CLA myself. While the M4 and two of the M3s came back in good condition, my former M4-P and one of the M3 smelled from oil and had a few visible oil drops (not that much as my recent M4-P) repeatedly appearing on the film pressure plate, the film rails and inside the film chamber.


As I stated in my post before, until that happened I was praising his work here at RFF and in another forum, too. Many here at RFF and elsewhere had nothing than good experience, which I don't doubt but from my personal recent experience (direct and indirect), I thought it to be fair to share.


Best Regards,

Gabor
 
i've had a less than stellar experience with youxin too. i sent him an M3 a couple of years ago and it was returned to me with oil all over it and the RF was very out of alignment.
he offered to try it again, but instead i accepted his offer to skip paying him and just get rid of it. and no, i didn't list it here!
i know a lot of other people have had great experiences with him, but i'll pay more and wait longer to have it done right the first time.

bob
 
Perhaps you could write to YY -- wye7 AT yahoo DOT com -- and find out what he has to say about people's complaints. He answers e-mail promptly.
 
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