M4-2 misconceptions

[Lauffray]

I've been considering a second M body more or less seriously, but have been so far indecisive and confused with the M4-2's reputation. The M4-2 seems ideal for what I want but this guy http://www.nemeng.com/leica/016b.shtml has been playing with my mind 😡 and cameraquest's description seems to converge. M4-2s are a few hundred dollars cheaper than M4s, M4-Ps and M6s but it's still around 900$ at least so I want to see what you guys think before I make the next move.

Is the M4-2's reputation as a cheap M4 founded, do they suffer from QC problems etc ?

 

[Shac]

Plastic gears? If we're talking about the same parts, I'm pretty sure the brass gears (M2,3,& 4s) were replaced with steel gears (for motor winder) starting with the M4-2. These sometimes made them seem slightly "rougher" at least at first. All subsequent M's (except perhaps MP) used similar gears

Tom A wrote positively about the M4-2 on RFF http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37655&page=2 :

"The M4-2 is a good camera, but some of the earlier ones had problem with "shutter" bounce. If you pick one up today. it most likely has been fixed. The M4 is a classic, but they are all getting on in age. The advantage of the M2/M4-2/M4P and M6 is that the finders can be fixed and the mechanics are the same.
I have found that on the later M4P's and early M6, apart from having a zinc diecast top-plate ( it doesn't dent, it cracks!), the rewind knob can easily be bent out of shape and it is very difficult to straighten it out. On the M4 and the earlier M4P's it was still brass and more malleable than the cast ones.
They are all good "shooting" cameras and after a CLA (clean,lube and adjust) they should last for a couple of more decades.
Most of the chrome M4's went to non-pro's and they usually took some care of them. The black paint M4's are worn and might need expensive service to replace advance gear. Brass is smooth, but it also wears faster than the later steel gears. The "harshest" M I ever used was a pair of MP's in the 60's. The hardened steel gears felt like they were chrushing rocks! The smoothest M i have is a dead heat between a couple of M2's and the latest version, the MP. Both will click and advance like stroking silk!"

 

[umcelinho]

today i saw a good m4-2 at la maison du leica, in paris. 395 euro, quite a good price!

 

[FrankS]

I have heard it reported that renowned repair person Sherri Krauter has a low opinion on M4-2's based on her experiences with repairing the various Leica M models. That opinion carries some weight for me.

 

[Tom A]

The very first series of M4-2's had some teething problems. Shutter bounce and, if you used it with the power winder M4-2 - it would happily advance the frame - before it was exposed!
The gear train in the M4-2 is case-hardened steel - mainly to cope with the power-winder. Slightly rougher than a M2/M3/M4 - but the same as a M4P. The M4-2's with a # over 1.500 xxx are the same as the M4P and will last just as long (which is a looong, looong time!). If you dont need the 28/75 frames - get a late M4-2 and you will do fine.
The very first 100 or so M4-2's (Leica rondel on the front - single cut-out for the power winder) are "collectors items" - the later ones # 1480 000 and onward had a bit of a "wonky" shutter brake - but after 30+ years it has probably been fixed. It would "bounce" - usually at 1/250 and you ended up with a semi-circular over exposure across 1/2 the negative. Easy fix though.
If you are looking for a good user - the M4-2 fits the bill. Cheaper than the M4P, much cheaper than the M4 - but it is still a M-Leica.

 

[Tom A]

I have heard it reported that renowned repair person Sherri Krauter has a low opinion on M4-2's based on her experiences with repairing the various Leica M models. That opinion carries some weight for me.

Sherri is a friend and usually I defer to her judgement - in this case I dont!
Sherri thinks more or less anything made after the M4 and not Made In Germany as aberrations! I have had 5-6 M4-2's - put them through some heavy use and apart from the shutter bounce issue (and a penchant for having screws come loose - frame selector lever and lens lock) they performed just as well as my M4P's.
Leica Midland did use a bit more 'shims" in the M4-2/M4P than the M4's - but that is not all bad as it can also reduce friction.

 

[Lauffray]

So what is the "good" range of SN ?

 

[FrankS]

So what is the "good" range of SN ?

This is cut/paste from Tom's post: The M4-2's with a # over 1.500 xxx are the same as the M4P..

 

[Lauffray]

Right, but then he says " the later ones # 1480 000 and onward had a bit of a "wonky" shutter brake"

 

[Nokton48]

I've been alternating between an M2, M4-2 and M5 for years. They are all good shooters, absolutely rock solid and totally trustworthy. It's really just personal preference which is the best for you. The fact that the M4-2 will take a Leicavit or Rapidwinder (mine has a Rapidwinder) is a major plus.

I think of it as an M6 without a meter.

 

[VictorM.]

I've been using an M4-2 for several years and hundreds of rolls with no trouble. Except for the time I slipped on ice and slammed it into a concrete sidewalk. I wasn't hurt and the M4-2 needed only a rangefinder adjustment! Of course, my opinion is only based on actual, real experience.

 

[ravid905]

I currently own an M4-2 with serial number 1,468,xxx (according to CQ serial number list, a Leitz Portugal Green Leica R3?), which obviously falls below the 1,5xx,xxx mentioned by Tom A. as the point where the cameras are the same as the M4-P, and also falls into the "No Go Area" according to the site you linked to. However, this M4-2 has not been any different functionally than the M2, or M3, that I used to own. I have no idea if it has been CLA'd in the past (I think there is still some wax from the wax seal in the camera), but I have no doubt it will continue to be an excellent camera for me for many years into the future as it is. I might need to get the finder cleaned though. Other than that, I am completely content with what I have, and am sure you will be as well.

 

[Lflex]

Right, but then he says " the later ones # 1480 000 and onward had a bit of a "wonky" shutter brake"

Tom also said "but after 30+ years it has probably been fixed".

You have all the information you need in this thread, the rest is religion.

Regardless of which model of these old cameras you end up with, you may find it has some quirk in need of repair after a few months which will easily set you back 3-400 $. Experience has told me never to buy a used Leica if I can't afford a follow up CLA. My first lesson was after buying an M4 that seemed to work perfectly fine when I examined it at the seller, but broke down 3 weeks later 🙁

 

[back alley]

these are old cameras that may or may not have been well maintained.

 

[Livesteamer]

I would second the idea of being ready to service any used Leica you buy. My first, an M3 bought in 1990 from Don Chatterton, worked well thru the six month warranty and at seven months developed shutter problems that DAG sorted out. My other used M's worked well but all my Leica screw mounts have needed service. Good Luck. Joe

 

[xayraa33]

I been using M4-2s since 1978 and the two I have are still going strong.
The first was bought new and it had the shutter bounce problem that was repaired under warranty in Midland after my first roll of film and it has been running good ever since then.
The second i bought new in 1980 and returned it to Midland pronto as the film advance was very rough, It came back smooth as silk(but not as smooth as my M4) and it has been that way since.

My main beef if anything is the (flare )whiteout prone RF geometry of the later M4-2s, the ones everyone is convinced are better than the earlier M4-2 by the serial number grouping ritual. If anything I prefer the first batch of M4-2s, as these still had the better M4 type RF (light condenser) geometry. That RF whiteout thing drives me up the wall.

 

[micromoogman]

The M4-2 is better than M4-P and M6 in every aspect. Just look at the inferior adjustment points for the curtain tension. The feeble star wheels that M6 and M4-P have can lose grip of the hooks if you drop your camera on the ground. They have generic Philips screw heads everywhere instead of unique slotted ones. The flash sync fastenings in the bottom plate are plastic and not hi quality metal like in M4-2... The little cap in the light shield baffle is exactly the same in the M4-2 as in M3 and M2, not a plastic pop out cap... The rangefinder is better as it is identical to the M2 and M4 type. M4-P and M6 have a prism removed from the patch to increase contrast and minimize the risk of separation (I guess). But they flare and white-out big time instead. The viewfinder and rangefinder glass is recessed in the brass on the M4-2 and not square with the zinc metal on the M6. Safer. I've seen many M6's with cracks in the VF glass but no M4-2. The vulcanite on the M4-2 is like the good old M's whereas M6's have a soft self adhesive material. And it has no visible screw holes in it, so servicing includes stripping the leatherette off... Just to mention a few.

 

[micromoogman]

And that bouncing is just a myth. It has the same brakes as the M2and M4. The M3 has (in some versions) two separate brakes for the first and second curtain, the other had a coupled brakes with just one adjusting point.

 

[nobbylon]

5 year old thread! who cares anyway, all M's are great apart from M5's and hugely overpriced latest versions 🙂

 

[xayraa33]

And that bouncing is just a myth. It has the same brakes as the M2and M4. The M3 has (in some versions) two separate brakes for the first and second curtain, the other had a coupled brakes with just one adjusting point.

Myth or not, my first M4-2 had shutter bounce straight out of the box.
And like I said in 2011, it was fixed under warranty by Leitz, as a brand new camera should.